Enrique Chagoya NA + Titus Kaphar NA

In episode 2, Enrique Chagoya NA and Titus Kaphar NA connect on their passion for arts education outside of the traditional education system, creating politically charged work that sometimes receives violent reactions, and the materiality and varied mediums of their work.

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EP2 - Enrique Chagoya NA + Titus Kaphar NA

[00:00:00] Adrienne: Hi, I'm Adrienne Elise Tarver, the Director of Programs and the host of the National Academy podcast: Exquisite Corpse. This podcast is a series of conversations between artists and architects who've been elected by their peers to the National Academy of Design for their extraordinary contributions to art and culture in America.

[00:00:18] These are the National Academicians and they are at the core of the oldest artist-run organization in the United States. This is Exquisite Corpse.

[00:00:31] Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Exquisite Corpse podcast. When I decided to start the podcast, I had ideas of how it might go. What people might want to talk about or the challenges we would face and starting a conversation. I was excited to get to meet these artists and architects that I've always looked up to.

[00:00:49] What I didn't expect was how fun and meaningful this could potentially be for them. For this episode, I reached out to Enrique Chagoya. He's a new Academician inducted in 2020. I was excited to have his artistic voice as a part of the academy and I was curious to hear what he had to say. I asked him who he would like to speak with and I played matchmaker and reached out to his choice, Titus Kaphar. 

[00:01:13] What I got to witness, and what you'll get to hear, was really special. It turns out Titus looked up to Enrique his entire career. So not only is Titus essentially meeting his art hero in this episode, but they start a unique friendship and bond over their shared interests. Like their passion for arts education outside of traditional systems and what it feels like to create politically charged work that sometimes receives violent reactions.

[00:01:37] They also have a very open and honest conversation about what it means to be a part of the National Academy and discuss membership as a potential source of collective power. We'll also learn what a murder board is but we'll hear about that later.

[00:01:51] The National Academy of design was initiated by artists and architects to fill a void in the American artistic landscape of the 19th century. But we recognize our history has excluded many communities and cultures whose lineages and practices must be included in this country's art historical cannon: indigenous peoples, people of color, queer and non-binary individuals and people with disabilities. We are committed to a process of dismantling the ongoing legacies of settler colonialism and white supremacy. We're excited to move forward and have conversations that reflect the important questions and issues of today. 

[00:02:23] This is the Exquisite Corpse podcast.

[00:02:29] Before we get into it, let's talk about the setup. When we record these conversations, we're looking at videos of each other on a computer screen. Like Zoom, but not Zoom. Enrique joins us from his home in San Francisco and Titus from his studio in new Haven, Connecticut. Behind Titus, we can see a large space with a couple of chairs and paintings leaning against the walls. On the far wall behind him, there's a large unfinished painting. You won't be able to see this, but at one point he gets up from his computer and walks over to the painting to give Enrique a sense of scale. Not being able to share this with you is one of the limitations of a podcast. But it's also a nice moment between these two new friends. One artist showing another a painting and progress. And I think it's kind of nice that it gets to stay between them. There's also a slideshow of images of both artists work that they refer to throughout the conversation. At the National Academy, we've been having conversations about big topics that will ultimately shape the core values of who we are as an institution. In programs and exhibitions, in particular, we've been talking about accessibility. Recently, we've had some workshops about verbal descriptions, thinking about how to help low vision and blind individuals better experience the work. Thanks Maya and Karen for your expertise in this area. Coincidentally, these workshops are also helpful for figuring out how to translate the visual references in these conversations on the podcast. So sometimes I'll pop in to let you know what we're looking at. You can also see images of the works at our website national academy dot org.

[00:04:04] [Fading in] ...and anything else you want to add to that real quick. Titus, you want to go first?

[00:04:09] Titus Kaphar: Um, my name is Titus Kafar. Uh, Titus Tyrone Kafar, if I'm using my full, full name. But only my mother says that. So, don't put that out in the world.

[00:04:22] Enrique Chagoya: Uh, I'm Enrique Chagoya and, uh, I am in San Francisco. Very happy to be here.

[00:04:29] Adrienne: Welcome to you both. And thank you for joining us.

[00:04:32] Enrique Chagoya: Thank you. 

[00:04:33] Titus Kaphar: Thank you.

[00:04:34] Adrienne: So, I want to start off the conversation, as I will do with every conversation for this podcast, with, uh, the person I first reached out to us Enrique, and I asked you, Enrique, who you would like to speak with. Um, and you selected Titus. So I want to ask you why?

[00:04:50] Enrique Chagoya: Oh, I, I, first time I saw Titus' artwork was, uh, in Washington, in the National Portrait Gallery. That was, I believe 2018. And it was a collaboration with another artist, with Ken Gonzalez, I think. 

[00:05:07] Titus Kaphar: Yeah, Ken Gonzalez. Yeah. 

[00:05:08] Enrique Chagoya: Uh, and it blew my mind. I think it was a incredible exhibition. Later on, I have seen some other works by Titus, uh, in some exhibitions in the Bay area. Some went to Stanford at the Cantor Art Museum there was, uh, some of his portraits. Um, I remember then some of them with tar covering half of her face, you know, cut for small pieces, but really powerful. And also at the museum of the African Diaspora in San Francisco, when I saw an exhibition there just around a year later. So I've been very impressed, especially by the NXTHVN project with young, young artists and the opportunities they are getting. I think as, um, new new talents are being discovered there, artists, curators. I think it's really terrific experience. And, uh, as an educator myself, I think that's, uh, where future is, with the youngest generations. You had, before that was teaching on, on colleges, I was teaching, uh, at some point at the San Francisco county jail for about two years. And uh, that was a grant for artists working in institutions that, um, I was happy to work in. And also that was quite, quite an experience for me. It was, most of my students were, uh, African-American uh Chicanex, you know, uh, and other, other, other students from Latin American backgrounds. Um, a few white students. But I never saw them as inmates. They were art students. They were studying drawing with me. And just the fact that some of the educational opportunities are given so, to some people who were in jail, in this case, open the possibility that they will have a different life outside of prison. And just statistically, anybody who took any classes, art, like art classes or, um, you know, there was drama, there was a poetry. That, there was even gardening, other things. Anybody from, from the San Francisco county jail that took classes there, were able to, they didn't return. They didn't come back most of them. They didn't come back. So, I realized that education is key, uh, you know, uh, to open up the doors to many communities that have more chances to go to prison than to go to a university. So, that's why I see the importance of, uh, schools like that, next, NXTHVN. I think it's, you know, beautiful. That, that's a terrific experience. So I, I was very curious to, to meet the artists behind all of that based also my own experience because I identify with that kind of work. That's kind of of social awareness behind an artist. So, so maybe it's a long answer to a very simple question, but I was very happy... 

[00:08:38] Titus Kaphar: You have no, you ha, you know, this is, you don't know how funny this is, like, to me, the, how hilarious is this is. Because, um, so I went to San Jose state for undergrad and, you know, the main person I worked with when I was at San Jose state, Um, was Rupert Garcia. 

[00:08:56] Enrique Chagoya: Right

[00:08:56] Titus Kaphar: And Rupert put me onto your work a long time ago, man. Like, you know, I have been thinking about your work since the beginning. I would say that in terms of the politics of my work, you and Rupert are probably the most influential people on my practice. So when I got, when I got the call, I was like, I don't care. What's on my schedule. We're going to figure this thing out. I was sick and I was like, if I got COVID, I'm going to be on this call. It doesn't really matter. I'm figuring this out. And here's the other thing. You don't know this, but this is not the first time we met. You were at Stanford and you were teaching at Stanford and I was just creeping around campus trying to find you. And I stumbled, stumbled in quotations, on your studio when it was on campus. 

[00:09:54] Enrique Chagoya: Oh, that's funny. 

[00:09:56] Titus Kaphar: Do you remember when you had that long, like hanger-style campus, uh, a studio over there. 

[00:10:01] Enrique Chagoya: Right. 

[00:10:01] Titus Kaphar: And, uh, you didn't know who I was. I knew exactly who you were and you were, the crazy thing was like, you were totally kind to me. You weren't like who is this creepy person trying to get into my studio? That's really weird. You were just nice. You were just nice. 

[00:10:18] Enrique Chagoya: I'm glad. 

[00:10:18] Titus Kaphar: The other thing is, I applied to graduate school, uh, I mean, everybody knows this who knows my story. Like, I got rejected from graduate school again and again and again. So I applied to Stanford two times. Two separate times. So, I say all that to say... 

[00:10:39] Enrique Chagoya: Well, what year was that when you applied to Stanford? 

[00:10:41] Titus Kaphar: Two thousand and, I applied in 2002 and 2003 um, I applied to Stanford. So, um, yeah man, I know everything about you. 

[00:10:54] Enrique Chagoya: Right? Yeah, I'm just sorry about that thing about Stanford because, uh, I had to fight a lot too. Especially in the earlier years, to open up to more political art, to more, I mean, I was at the time, the only person of color. 

[00:11:13] Titus Kaphar: I remember. I remember. 

[00:11:14] Enrique Chagoya: Today, today, we are more diversified. We are like the UN in seven people. All genders, all everything. 

[00:11:24] Titus Kaphar: But how many people do you accept? Cause when I was applying, you were only accepting five people. 

[00:11:29] Enrique Chagoya: It's still the same. 

[00:11:31] Titus Kaphar: That's, that's... 

[00:11:32] Enrique Chagoya: It's a problem. 

[00:11:33] Titus Kaphar: That's not good. 

[00:11:35] Enrique Chagoya: No, the only good news, the only good news, and this is something that the audience should know, is that you don't pay a penny. 

[00:11:42] Titus Kaphar: know. 

[00:11:43] Enrique Chagoya: It's, it's free. And on top of that, you get paid about, I don't know, twenty, defending, depending on the endowment that we have a year, you pay between twenty to twenty-give thousand dollars a year. The bad news is that we only take five people. But uh, it's a big, then we have a big wrestling match among with my colleagues and who gets in. Who gets, it's just... A lottery of biases. And I can't believe that happened to you. And I believe that it happened to you, at the same time. Because I have to argue by, to support other applicants who got in after the third time. 

[00:12:22] Titus Kaphar: You know, it, uh, it didn't, it didn't really surprise me, uh, to be completely honest with you. Um, and literally the only reason I was applying, the only reason I was applying was because of you. There was no, I wasn't trying to work with anybody else there. There was nothing, um, that I, I'm going to be frank, there's nothing that I specifically wanted from Stanford. Um, it was seeing your work and the way that you were able to weave together, the aesthetics, the form and the politics without, without making it didactic. Without making it like, you know, a chalkboard classroom, a conversation about how one makes political art. Um, I wanted to understand that. That's what I want to understand. That was the reason for it. So, um, again, I was incredibly enthusiastic when I, when I found out it was your request. I'm glad you told me. Um, had, had, uh, had you not told me it was Enrique, I don't know. I might, I might've said no. 

[00:13:27] Enrique Chagoya: Well, I'm flattered. Uh, very happy to, to meet you finally. And thankfully, better circumstances than academia.

[00:13:36] Titus Kaphar: Yeah. I'm not being rejected this time. I appreciate it. 

[00:13:39] Enrique Chagoya: No, please. I can't believe it. Anyways, but I believe it. 

[00:13:43] Titus Kaphar: You were saying something, you were saying, something that I think is really important. You were talking about how you're working with folks who are currently incarcerated. Or at one point you were working with folks who were currently incarcerated. And just seeing them as art students, as opposed to being, you know, prisoners or something to this effect. Um, and you know, it is for sure not the same thing, but there's certainly a relationship between the way I'm thinking about our community itself. And what I'm, let me explain that. What I mean by that is, I've come to understand that our communities, black and brown communities specifically, um, marginalized communities specifically, um, are the communities that most need creativity. That most need creativity. Um, and why I say most, and I mean that. Most need creativity is because we are required to imagine realities for our future, that we've never seen. We haven't, we haven't seen that. I, I've given this example a lot to people. Like you, you're a doctor and your father was a doctor and congratulations, and that's good. And that's really, really wonderful. But for the kid whose father was a crack head, and that kid becomes a doctor, that takes the kind of imagination and creativity that is beyond just simply following the path that's laid out for you. And in our communities, that creativity is not really being supported often in the schools. We're taking out the arts programs. And in a place like jail or prison, that creativity and that imagination is needed as much or even more. And so I think, I think it becomes, I think it becomes a political act, um, an act of resistance. An act of empowerment to teach art in these kinds of contexts. In these kinds of situations. Um, and it's, it becomes an act of liberation, um, actually. And I think it's under, I think it's very much underestimated because we just think about teaching art in terms of the products that are made instead of the impact that it makes on our mind and our thinking and our consciousness. 

[00:16:04] Enrique Chagoya: Yeah, totally, totally agree with that. Uh, I, one thing I also very happy that you do with, uh, with this school, is that you are getting support from mainstream places. Your own gallery, maybe many other people. And I think that's pretty important because then you, you, you, how can I put it? You put together a lot of support beyond just the already convinced. Beyond somebody like myself. You know, all the friends in the arts. But, uh, but people with more powerful positions, with economic power as well, to support the schools like the NXTHVN. I think that's just terrific. I, for instance, in my case, uh, I stopped teaching in prison to become the director of a Chicano gallery in the Mission. The Galería de la Raza, I don't know, you might have heard of them too. 

[00:17:01] Titus Kaphar: Oh yeah. 

[00:17:01] Enrique Chagoya: Yeah, Rupert Garcia was one of the founders too of that that...that place. So I, I became the Artistic Director for about three and a half years before I decided to move on to teaching. But, my first exhibition that I curated was from my students from prison, all my students from the San Francisco county jail. And we managed to get the sheriff of San Francisco, Sheriff Hennessey. I still remember him. To give permission to the prisoners to come to the opening reception. And they did. 

[00:17:46] Titus Kaphar: Wow.

[00:17:47] Enrique Chagoya: Even the Sheriff, even the Sheriff came to the opening. And a lot of them were from El Salvador. A lot of them were just local African-American. A few women, actually as well, too. And it was really beautiful. Uh, the happiness I, I experienced in the faces of my students, on the Sheriff, on myself. And the people at the Galería de la Raza was, uh, very, very memorable. Um, I am sure you are having experiences like that because, when you go, when your communities, in a way, the best reward is that that you feel like you are doing something that is beyond yourself. And somehow it comes back to you in a very positive, energetic interaction. So, so I just want to congratulate you for keep doing that. 

[00:18:48] Titus Kaphar: Well, I mean, I tell people all the time, uh, this didn't come from nowhere. Um, what NXTHVN has grown into, uh, started with the seeds that were planted into me, um, by Rupert really, really early on. And the sort of philosophical stance is uh, we can do it for ourselves. Like, we don't need to, we don't need to always fight to be, um, at their table. Let's have our own damn table. Let's make our own meals hot. You know, I cook good, right? Like, I can, like, I can get down. I don't, I don't need that table. As a matter of fact, I don't even really like that table. So like, we're just going to, we're going to completely do it differently. And so, having been artistically raised, uh, by artists of consciousness, um, those seeds were there. And so when, when I came to a situation in New Haven where I felt like there needed to be changed, um, it just, it just felt natural to go, let's just make our own table. Let's make our own context. If, uh, if it's not happening the way we think it should happen, um, then we gotta be the people that make that change. So let's, let's do it. And fortunately, I found a team of people who believed in the idea enough to jump on, to jump on board with me. 

[00:20:08] I think I, part of the other thing, the sort of, like, emotional struggle that I have is, just, my, the, the quote-on-quote success that I have in my career right now, and just thinking about, you know, who are the people who are buying this work? Like, I'm, you know, I'm, you know, I'm pouring out my soul here. I'm making these things because I need to make them. It's important to me. I feel like I'm speaking to, to, to my community. To my people. And then it gets out into the world and these other kinds of ways. And that's a struggle. Now, um, as my mom told me, uh, she said, she said, that's not your concern. Your concern is not the people who buy the work. And your concern is not where they got their money from. Your concern is what you do with your money. So, like, if you sell that work, and it does get sold, and you got to do something for your community. You gotta bring something back. You gotta bring something back home. And she said, as far as what they're paying for the work, don't worry about that. Just think of it as reparations. And so, like, that has become a part of my, my thinking in this. This is, this is, this is how I deal and it's not completely resolved. But it's how I deal with the cognitive dissonance of recognizing the, the social and political ideas that I'm painting about. And the fact that the, the, the Capitalist economy that is, that is commodifying, those ideas. Like is buying that stuff, like, how do I do, how, like, that is a...that has been a struggle. So my question to you is actually that. You've been doing this for a very long time. You've been on the front lines. You've been marching. You've been, I mean, I've been watching what you're doing with Mickey Mouse since back in the day. I mean, it's like, Mickey Mouse is always shown up in your work as these different American symbols. And I, and I love that. But my question to you is how are you wrestling with that as your work sells? As your work is going into institutions and museums? Are, do you feel like the people who are buying it are actually feeling it? 

[00:22:27] Enrique Chagoya: Uh, for the most part, yes. I think the one thing that my work, um, the, how can I put it? That my work, uh, represents is something not necessarily acceptable by the mainstream world? I, you know, my, my work is very idiosyncratic and I accept that. Uh, I wanted to do some conceptual art at some point, and I was getting bored with my own ideas. But... and I idea of love cartooning for a long time, uh, political cartooning, both in Mexico and here. And I decided to just bring that to a large format and make statements about anything that relates to history. Anything that relates to Colonialism, to contemporary life in this country when I moved to many years ago. Um, and regardless of the acceptance of the work, I thought I was not going to make a living as an artist when, when I, even when I was at the Art Institute at San Francisco Art Institute. Because as soon as I began to do my big charcoal cartoon drawings, I mean, I, I did, my first one was Ronald Reagan as Mickey mouse, you know? Talking about... 

[00:23:51] Titus Kaphar: I remember that. 

[00:23:52] Enrique Chagoya: Do you that one? That, that was part of a campaign against intervention in Central America. And, uh, we raised money that was sent for a literacy campaign in Nicaragua at the time. But anyways, so, I thought nobody's going to buy this work. So, I, that's why, that's why I did it on paper. I didn't want to spend money on oils or paints or anything. I thought, it was going to end up rolled up in my closest and that would be fine. I thought, if I have to work, uh, doing something else, like a taxi driver or a waiter, fine. I thought that that would be an honorable, honorable job, as long as I have some time to make my artwork. 

[00:24:37] Titus Kaphar: Yeah.

[00:24:37] Enrique Chagoya: That, that would be fine with me. I was surprised. I was surprised that so many people like the work. That particular drawing is in the collection of the San Jose Museum of Art. I, I mean those things were unpredictable to to me. And uh, so I'm surprised. So, but, you know, I don't make much of my living from sales it's more of my secondary income. And I respect artists who live off their sales of their work cause that's a lot of stress, a lot of deadlines. You're at the mercy of the forces of the economy, of trendiness in the art world. All of that. So, I try not to worry about it either. I think your mom was totally right. Don't...don't worry about it. 

[00:25:24] Titus Kaphar: She usually is, but don't tell her that. Don't tell her that. I hope she doesn't listen to this.

[00:25:31] Enrique Chagoya: Anyway, I agree with her. But, uh, but yeah, I think there's a point where, um, you just do what you do because you cannot stop doing it. 

[00:25:41] Titus Kaphar: Yeah. 

[00:25:41] Enrique Chagoya: That's it. And if it sells great. 

[00:25:43] Titus Kaphar: That was like, that was, um, that was certainly how I was, how I was taught as an artist. There was no expectation that this was going to be, um, my, like how I made my living. That was not the expectation. Like, not only was it that not the expectation, to be completely honest with you, I didn't know that it was possible. I didn't know that it was a thing. I hadn't, I didn't, I like I was going to school because I wanted to teach. I really, really want to teach. And that was fundamentally what I was going to do. And I figured I would be, you know, painting on the weekends or or when I had extra time. And, and that sounded like a beautiful, beautiful life to me. And, I went through the institution. I went to Yale and realized this system is strange, man. Like this is, I think my experiences at San Jose State, had I not had those, I don't know, I don't know that I would have survived Yale the way I did. Because, um, Rupert forced me to believe in myself. Um, and Yale's philosophy has been for generations, um, you know, you, you, you tear them down and build them back up. Right? And I was just not, I was not, you know, ripe to be torn down. I was not because I had, I had had a professor who was like, you need to know you. This is not about them. This has nothing... this is about you. You make this work for you. 

[00:27:18] Enrique Chagoya: Right.

[00:27:19] Titus Kaphar: They see it. They like it. Who cares? That has nothing, nothing to do with your practice. And so, by the time I got to Yale, I felt like, okay, um, I had a little bit of backbone. I could stand up. But I saw it break a lot of people. I saw a lot, I mean, there are folks I went to school with, who don't really make art anymore, 

[00:27:36] Enrique Chagoya: Wow 

[00:27:36] Titus Kaphar: Um, as a result of graduate school as a, as an experience. So yeah, it's something I, I, I think about a lot as I'm working with, um, the young artists at NXTHVN, and trying to figure out how to raise money for this organization. And again, I have these, um, consolations, I suppose, like, you know, as I said before, trying to reconcile the cognitive dissonance, um, if I'm going to, for example, uh, one of the consolations is, okay, Gagosian has come to you. They want to represent you. Um, that's like a mammoth gallery. Uh, if you do that, you got to convince them to give NXTHVN a million dollars. Otherwise, don't do it. I don't like, like, you know, lay it down. And, um, and they did, and I was like, oh, okay. Alright. I guess, I guess I got to make a higher hurdle. Um, and so...

[00:28:39] Enrique Chagoya: And that was the first time they ever did that too, I was reading about it. 

[00:28:43] Titus Kaphar: Yeah, it was the first time they ever did that. Yeah, it was the first time I ever did that. But it's like, it's those kinds of decisions, it's like, if I'm going to be a part of this economy, then I've got to wield the economics on behalf of the people who don't have it. Right? I gotta, you know, make sure that I'm never forgetting, like where I come from. Where I grew up. What my experience was. And how distant art felt even as a concept, um, you know, in our neighborhood, in our block, in our homes. Um, I was talking to somebody the other day and realizing there were no like, paintings on our wall in our house. That wasn't... there was, I, I, I was in graduate... No, I was an undergrad before I had seen someone living with art in the way that like a collector lives with art. I just hadn't, I hadn't seen that before. You know? There was family photographs on the wall for sure. Lots of thoes. 

[00:29:43] Enrique Chagoya: Titus, I wonder, I'm curious. Um, about your different disciplines? You, you are a filmmaker as well. I think a photographer, uh, an installation artist. And, um, I, I'm curious to, to hear your present practice, uh, what are you doing right now? Uh, those, when you do something like cross-disciplinarity or you focus on, at some point like every project, you go, okay, these damages is going to work on paintings. When I have time, I've got to make a film. I mean, like compartmentalize your practice, or how do you approach your, your concepts and your work?

[00:30:36] Titus Kaphar: So for me, I've always found that, um, work, this is kind of like my mantra, work makes work. Um, and so inevitably what happens is I make a thing that leads me to another thing. Um, and usually it leads me into something I don't know how to do very well. Which requires me to learn a new practice. So, um, I was making these series of paintings where I was deconstructing, um, George Washington classic portraits and crumpling them. Um, and they became these sort of objects. Which got me thinking about painting dimensionally. Which got me thinking about sculpture. Which got me wondering what other materials could I manipulate a representation of George Washington in? And, and so I started, I decided that I wanted to learn how to blow glass. And so I went ,um, I went to this glassblowing foundry and worked with some amazing people there. And that became a part of my repertoire. So like, as I, I feel like my practice tells me what I need to learn when I'm, when I'm focused and when I'm like locked in. And, um, at this point I just trust it in the beginning. Um, I fought a lot. I was like, nah, I'm a painter. I'm just going to make paintings. I'm good. Um, and I was realizing, I was, I was saying no to the muses. Right? Like I, like, and who does that? Like, why would you, why would you do that? Um, so if, if, if the muses are knocking, you, you answer the door. And if they tell you something crazy, but it's crazy and it sparks you, it exhilarates you, then, you know, you got to go on that journey. And that's how, that's how my practice has evolved. So my, um, Jerome Project film that I started evolved out of a series of paintings. And those series of paintings, as with most of my work, evolved out of a conversation and a question I was having with myself. Um, and that particular project was a conversation I was having about my relationship to my father. And so the paintings evolved, resulted from that. And then the paintings turned into a documentary where my father and I are, uh, reengaging after being separated for, uh, quite a long time. So that's, that's more or less, that's more or less how it, how it happens. I mean, the piece, um, behind you, let me give you, I'm gonna walk over there... 

[00:33:26] Adrienne: So this is that moment I mentioned before. Titus gets up from his computer and walks across the studio to stand next to a large painting on the back wall. The scale shift is dramatic. The painting is nearly twice as tall as him and wider than it is tall.

[00:33:42] Titus Kaphar: So, um, that happened because I wanted something to look like it was on a screen, a movie screen. And so like the whole, the, you know, again, so one work led to another work. Um, and so the whole thing, you know, is generative in that way. I feel like if you leave yourself open to that kind of thing. 

[00:34:08] Enrique Chagoya: That's terrific. So they are bigger than life size. 

[00:34:11] Titus Kaphar: Yeah, yeah. Those, those ones. Yeah. Yeah. Often, I mean, I really, uh, I mean, there's one exception right now. I'm working on a series right now. 

[00:34:20] Enrique Chagoya: Is that the silhouette of Mohammed Ali?

[00:34:22] Titus Kaphar: Yes. Yeah. So I, I, um, I did, I did this uh, so I've been obsessed with Muhammad Ali for a really long time. I'm also obsessed with boxing. It's um, you know, I, I, I'm a boxer. I, I'm not good or anything like that, but like I love, I love boxing. I love training as a boxer. And, um, I, I've just been obsessed with Muhammad Ali as a icon. As a figure of an empowered, um, conscious, uh, political black man. Um, and so, in this particular work, I don't, now you can share the image if you have it. I don't think you have this one though. Um, uh, uh, I was interested in how historical moments change when you see them through that particular lens. If Muhammad Ali is the lens, is the frame through which we view these different moments in history. How does it make us think about those particular moments? And so in this painting right here, what you have is, you know, that, that Muhammad Ali, Sonny Liston fight where Ali is standing above him and Liston as laid out on the floor. Um, but that is cut out. It's removed. And then behind that is actually the Battle of Bunker Hill. Um, and that's a painting, that's a quotation from the painting from John Trumbull. Um, and that simply states the question. As we are looking at these, uh, representations of the Revolutionary War, what questions do we ask when we're looking through, um, through this frame, as I said, of mom and Ali? Um, obviously one of the questions becomes, like, so where are the black folks? Um, like where are the other people who were fighting for this revolution, um, as well? And are they, are they represented in these historical paintings that, uh, that my education has told me are so important. Um, that folks have decided is, is the canon. Um, what is the cannon uh, forgetting?

[00:36:31] Enrique Chagoya: Right. I think what you say is also very important, you know, how, how history is, uh, interpret by dominant cultures. You know, and it's something that I also share with you. The way you are expressing it. It's, um, it's very important because history, uh, I have written that myself, I mean as you know, is usually written by those who are the victors of war. Anywhere from conquistadors for, for people to stay in power after a civil war. That looks like my paintings, Titus.

[00:37:09] Titus 

[00:37:10] Adrienne: This is when I start to share the slide show. We start with Enrique's work and we're looking at a piece called Water of Oblivion in Mictlan. A very wide, and, very visually complicated and, dense 23 by 88 inch digital print from 2021. It shows a procession of figures, riding animals, many that are horses and some mythological creatures. The background is dense with symbols and characters and subtle imagery. The colors, which range from blues to pinks and soft orange are subdued except for the bright yellow of a gilded framed arch.

[00:37:43] Enrique Chagoya: Uh, the, uh, the, these painting where people from former colonies are taking Europe. European or Western culture. But also they are taking a mythological place in the land of the dead. Uh, this is pretty big. This is a big piece. Uh, unfortunately I don't have it at home here, so I will stand up now. It's, it's not, it's not, uh, it's, it's based on my, my Colombian books is, um, this is our digital, uh, work. 

[00:38:21] Titus Kaphar: I love this, I love this composition, this landscape. Just that, it feels like, it feels like a scroll. And then the, the figures in the composition seem collage themselves. Like they're pieces of, um, multiple different bodies brought together. 

[00:38:41] Enrique Chagoya: Yeah, it was a collaboration I had with, uh, Magnolia Editions in Oakland. 

[00:38:47] Titus Kaphar: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. 

[00:38:48] Enrique Chagoya: So you know them. And uh, I've been working with them a lot. And Donald Farnsworth is the owner and the director. And I worked with him. And he, um, he and I were taking the decision. So I basically was telling him what to do and he will, he will do it. He's like, uh, but uh, I have this book of, um, the Triumph of Maximilian. Which I decided to change into indigenous characters taking over. Uh, this is about the history of the west versus non-western cultures. Maybe the history of the Americas as well. Uh, as you well know, you know, the, the conquest of the Americas, the extension of Native Americans, in a way, is something that created the need for a slavery throughout the whole continent. All the way from South America, Mexico, uh, North America. Uh, because there was no indigenous people to exploit, 90% of the population died or extincted within the first hundred years after the conquest. Slavery became very strong, first in South America and Brazil, Peru, Mexico. Of course the Caribbean, you know, all the Caribbean islands and then the US. And we are so connected with history that way because we are part of the same, how can I put it, used to put it in my words, the same experience. 

[00:40:32] Titus Kaphar: Yeah. You know, I'm curious, I'm curious, you know, so a lot of times when people see political work, my work Rupert's work, your work, whatever. Um, there is a, there is a, uh, sort of philosophy and idea that like, this is not what, you know, the paint is the paint, right? Let's, you know, Greenberg like, you know, you know, why are we having these conversations about the past? Like we're, we're beyond that now. We are, we, we are contemporary people and the, the work should reflect, like, this moment in this way. Now, you know, what I believe about that, but I'm very curious how you respond or how you would respond to that. 

[00:41:19] Enrique Chagoya: I think it's all so connected. Uh, history is today. I think what happened in history is what is affecting the world today. Basically the history of Capitalism is the history of Colonialism 

[00:41:38] Titus Kaphar: Mmm. 

[00:41:39] Enrique Chagoya: Without, uh, the colonies that Europe had in the early stages of Capitalism, in the late fourteen hundreds, early fifteen hundreds, created the industrial revolution. And this slavery later created the accumulation of value that was extirpated from labor. And it became later something more legal, you know, low wages, working class that replaced slavery in a way. And it's just that one thing leads another. All the way to climate change. To the greed that is destroying the world. To inequality about which people are more affected by climate change. I mean, it's like, when you wonder, why is this happening? It's not happening overnight. And we are facing a huge challenge. Uh, it's a challenge of survival as a species. I think we, we need to address any possibility, any dream of escaping this mass extinction that we are going through. With all, all the craziness of, of the world. So, art for me is a way to start the conversation for change. Is a way to address historic moments. Uh...

[00:43:12] Titus Kaphar: you don't think...you don't think it's about making pretty pictures and like feeling good and, you know, isn't it so cathartic for you. And you just sit in your studio and you paint little flowers and you come out and you have a little rainbow over your head or some shit like that? That's not what it's about for you? 

[00:43:29] Enrique Chagoya: No, but I have to say, you have to have some laugh. You have to, to, to laugh a little bit when you are working on otherwise it's very depressing. 

[00:43:41] Titus Kaphar: So, I, I think that's a really interesting point. We, so NXTHVN, we select, uh, seven artists for the program, um, each year. And, um, the artists get twenty-five thousand dollars.. They get the professional development training. We pay for their housing. Um, and, uh, each artist works with a high school student from one of our local high schools here. Um, and they are a apprentice for the artists in the building. So we get about 350 applications for artists for this program every year. And this year we got them from all over the world. We got our first international artists in our program. Um, uh, uh, this year one from Ghanim one from Nigeria. Anyway, um, when we were making the selection, as difficult as the year that we had experienced was uh, and let me also say that NXTHVN specifically focuses on, um, black and brown people. Um, as difficult of a year as we had, we felt like it was critical for us to select work that dealt with the reality of the experience. And that, that reality also reflect the levity of what it means to be in the skins that we live in. Um, there is a, there is a, uh, perspective. A way in which we can look at the situation where there is no joy. There is no levity. There is no happiness. Um, it becomes about the exhibition of our pain. And we're in a strange moment where, um, there is an audience for our suffering. Now, we have to tell those stories. The truth has to be told. It's, it's necessary for that to be experienced. But there, but there also has to be the clarity of understanding. We are not one dimensional. We are totally rounded with, with pain and fear. But also joy, um, and love. So, uh, I, I completely agree with you. I even, you know, I, I might even dance in the studio once in a while if something is working. Um, but only when nobody is around..

[00:45:49] Enrique Chagoya: Well, you can do it with everybody around. Uh, but, you know, I, I, I want to show one more piece before we move to it, or maybe you just pass through, these are my Seven Deadly Sins. Um, with cartoonying. 

[00:46:04] Titus Kaphar: Oh, man, I haven't seen this one. Oh my God. Wait, go back, go back. Go back. No, no, no, no, no. yeah, you're right there. Right there. 

[00:46:15] Enrique Chagoya: That one,

[00:46:17] Adrienne: We stop on pride from Enrique's the Seven Deadly Sin series. This small 12 by 16 inch acrylic and oil painting shows a skeleton holding up a mirror to a Trump-poop hybrid figure. His head emerging from the top of a coiled brown blob. There's a small Snow White image just below the reflected white silhouetted face of Donald Trump. Tiny collage glass eyes swim in the brown goop that lines the bottom of the painting.

[00:46:42] Enrique Chagoya: That on. Right? That one. Yeah. 

[00:46:43] Titus Kaphar: Wow

[00:46:44] Enrique Chagoya: That's a pride. The back pride 

[00:46:47] Titus Kaphar: Wow. 

[00:46:48] Enrique Chagoya: With a Snow White in the reflection. You know, it's uh... 

[00:46:53] Titus Kaphar: Have you shown these? 

[00:46:54] Enrique Chagoya: Yes. I have shown him in San Francisco and in New York. In San Francisco at Anglim/Trimble gallery and in New York at George Adams gallery just recently. But nobody's going to buy this stuff. You know, this is something that artists appreciate. Who's going to have a painting in their house. I would. Maybe in my... 

[00:47:13] Titus Kaphar: I mean, I, I would. I'll have it. Send it to me, man. Just send it right over. 

[00:47:19] Enrique Chagoya: It's perfect piece for the bathroom. 

[00:47:23] Titus Kaphar: I love it. I love it. 

[00:47:25] Enrique Chagoya: But, but see, it's, it's, uh, it's, uh, part of, uh, uh, works I have done that, in a way, address history by address stereotypes. Like the stereotype of this Savage, the stereotype know, the... different, and I, I was really sick and tired of, you know, the previous president's face. So I picked avatars.

[00:47:50] Titus Kaphar: Mm. 

[00:47:50] Enrique Chagoya: Instead of the political, uh, portrait. But the rest of the body is more recognizable. But the avatars interact with each other. And this one is Greed. So I have my Seven Deadly Sins. They're very thick paint. And they're, you know, they are this big. 

[00:48:08] Titus Kaphar: These pieces are that small? 12 inches. Wow. Well, so, I have a, I have a technical question for you. Um, so you're using acrylic and you use an oil. So, is it, do you lay the painting down in acrylic first? 

[00:48:21] Enrique Chagoya: Uh, Acrylic first. I paint, uh, the other painting

[00:48:25] Titus Kaphar: Yep

[00:48:26] Enrique Chagoya: ...with dark brown. 

[00:48:27] Titus Kaphar: Uh-huh. 

[00:48:28] Enrique Chagoya: The whole thing, with acrylic. 

[00:48:30] Titus Kaphar: So you do like a, you do a, um, you do a sort of monochromatic version of the painting in brown? A grisaille. 

[00:48:38] Enrique Chagoya: Exactly. Uh, and then I paint with water mixed with oils. That they also mix with acrylic if you paint over. 

[00:48:48] Titus Kaphar: Wait, you liked those things, man? 

[00:48:50] Enrique Chagoya: Yeah.

[00:48:50] Titus Kaphar: I can't stand... like what? Oh, I don't know, dude. I don't know. I mean, obviously it's working for you. But like, I, I, there's something about the oil, the linseed oil and the, you 

[00:49:02] Enrique Chagoya: I know.

[00:49:03] Titus Kaphar: I, I hope it doesn't kill me. I will say that. But... but the quality of the water-based oil paint, I, I found it really, really hard to get into.

[00:49:13] Enrique Chagoya: It depends on the brand. And you have to get used to them because they behave slightly different than regular oils. But they take also time to dry, depending on the pigment that it's in the, in the paint. Uh, and the quality, um, uh, it makes a difference. But, I, pretty much I... that, that's what I work. And then on top of it, I used acrylic. Really thick acrylic or I have a leftover cake of paint in my palette. I peel it off and then I...and I go like there... 

[00:49:51] Titus Kaphar: You are definitely having fun over there. So when you do, so when you did this, did you do as... oh I like that one too. Did you do a, um, a drawing for this? Like, did you sketch it out on paper first or? 

[00:50:02] Enrique Chagoya: Yeah. So in the middle of my, my insomnia, I draw it and then I go back to sleep the next day. If I laugh about it, I do it. So...

[00:50:18] Titus Kaphar: I love it.

[00:50:19] Enrique Chagoya: ...in my case, you know, it's the editorial cartooning that, uh, I, I kind of give up. And to be, this is what it is. Uh, and I say, I mean, I haven't sold a single of these paintings. And I thought I would never sell them. And I don't care. I'm very happy with this. I, I would like to have the Seven Deadly Sins somewhere together, either in my house or whatever. Um, or even donated to museum. But anyways, so this is a self-portrait of my DNA. So I have mostly Native American. So that's missing in this, uh...

[00:51:01] Adrienne: This one is Savage Guide to Reverse Modernism by Enrique. The image shows a portrait of six figures arranged horizontally each inhabiting their own square of the composition. The backgrounds have blue and white shapes crossing behind them. Each figure wears the traditional clothing of a different culture.

[00:51:20] Enrique Chagoya: Uh, I like 51% Native American. Probably from Central Mexico. Then 38% is Spaniard.. Then about, the rest 10%, I am from Northern Africa, from the Middle East, from Southern Asia, from Eastern Asia. Even a little bit from Northern Europe. And I guess my ancestors were very promiscuous, you know, everywhere they traveled. 

[00:51:45] Titus Kaphar: So these are all self... all self-portraits?. 

[00:51:48] Enrique Chagoya: Yeah. All of them. As, you know, just a different characters. You know, I just hope some people don't get crazy again and destroy this one too, because it's... 

[00:52:00] Titus Kaphar: Yeah. Yeah. yeah. Tell me about that. What, what happened with that? What was um... That? Uh, somebody hit one of your paintings with a crowbar? 

[00:52:10] Enrique Chagoya: Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of like a funny story. It got scary because you get to have hate mail. 

[00:52:16] Titus Kaphar: Yeah.

[00:52:16] Enrique Chagoya: Death threats. You know, whatever. 

[00:52:18] Titus Kaphar: Yeah.

[00:52:18] Enrique Chagoya: And this was about 11 years ago, in 2010. In Colorado in a small museum. I made these, these, um, codecs that has collages of pornography, but soft porn. There's not nudity. There is no sex really happening. It's comic books that you find the streets in Mexico that are more or less kind of like a soft porn. And then I mixed those with religious icons. But when you mix them, it becomes a collage. It's...it's not the icon. You know, there is no Jesus in my, in that book. There is no religious kind of, it's a collage representing the corruption of some people's beliefs. And I, I grew up Catholic, but I'm not religious anymore. So, and I, I have a lot of friends, uh, who has suffered a child, child abuse. And for me, the Catholic church has been very hypocritical. Being homophobic. Being, uh, you know, very controlling on women's rights to, to, to their bodies, you know. When they opposed to, to family planning. To to, you know, to choice for women. And they also don't do anything about the child abuse. And nun abuse, also. Because nuns has been abused in the church. And now recently with all the, the, the children that were buried in Native Americans, in Canada, some in the US. Who knows how many more in the whole continent. I'm sure there's plenty. 

[00:54:01] Titus Kaphar: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:54:02] Enrique Chagoya: But, uh, but the, the Catholic church was behind that. In Mexico alone, they burn indigenous leaders, uh, alive because this indigenous leaders, Aztecs, uh, didn't want to convert into Christianity. So to me, that's a corruption of, I mean, when you read about Jesus, I mean, he could be a political leader. Very free thinking. Whatever. Now the funny part is, is this one. So I was presented in Fox News as, you know, a Stanford professor, just so they could hate me more. Right? A Stanford professor, uh, paint Jesus having oral sex. There is, there is no, there is no oral sex. There is no nudity. There is nothing. But, and there is no Jesus, either. As I say, it's a collage. It's the body of a woman, you know, like a head of an icon, etcetera. And somebody read that from Montana. She drove her truck all the way to Colorado. Got a crowbar. Got into the artwork. Destroyed the frame. Got the book and just started apart. 

[00:55:14] Titus Kaphar: So, where is this piece now? 

[00:55:16] Enrique Chagoya: Oh, it was left at the museum. It was the Loveland Museum of Art in Coronado. In the town of Loveland. 

[00:55:23] Titus Kaphar: Did they give it back to you? 

[00:55:24] Enrique Chagoya: No, no, we left it there. It's now, it's, it's like, uh, for the records. Now this is the funny part. It's a print. It's an edition of thirty. This, this person, this person, this, this lady, who drive in her eighteen wheeler...

[00:55:44] Titus Kaphar: You got a lot more work with you, lady, 

[00:55:47] Enrique Chagoya: She also, uh, you know, nobody told her, I guess, Fox News didn't tell her that it was a print. I am a print maker. And there were 40 copies of the same. The only thing is again, more publicity to the work and uh... 

[00:56:03] Titus Kaphar: That's hillarious, man. 

[00:56:05] Enrique Chagoya: And the rest, and you know, it raised the price on the print. I sold quite a few of those later. And uh, I made more friends, too. I made more friends than enemies. Even a pastor, a pastor in the town. 

[00:56:19] Titus Kaphar: I think it's interesting. I don't know, um, I don't know that people recognize how much, uh, artists like us get hate mail. I know that when I tell people that I get hate mail, they're like for what? Like how, why would somebody send you hate mail? Um, but many of the artists that I know, um, who do this work, uh, are getting, getting strange things set sent to them. And it is certainly, uh, for me anyway, it escalated, um, during the Trump years. 

[00:56:57] Enrique Chagoya: Yeah. 

[00:56:57] Titus Kaphar: Um, and then the show that you saw at, uh, at, in DC, the National Portrait Gallery. When the curator came to me, she was really excited about doing the show. And I was excited about doing the show. And when the show was being set up, she said, you know, uh, Titus I just want to let you know that we've done a murder boarding exercise with the whole staff. I was like, um, so yeah, what, what's that? That sounds bad. That sounds really bad. What's murder boarding? Um, and she said, well, you know, as a, as a staff, we get together and we try to write out and think through all of the responses that we need to have prepared for when people come in and criticize your work. Because, the institution is a part of the government. Right. And so, regularly politicians will walk in and have some have some, something to say. So they, they believed from the beginning that my work was going to be problematic. Such that they put this whole group together to have them have a conversation about, uh, my work and Ken's work. Um, for that, for that matter. Um, the painting behind the Myth of Benevolence, uh, which you do have an image of here...

[00:58:15] Adrienne: Behind the Myth of Benevolence is portrait of a black woman, sitting with a green and gold scarf wrapped around her head. And a wash basin and pitcher next to her. She appears to be nude but we can only see her head, shoulder and knee. Draped on top of this painting, is another painting. This one, a portrait of a white man recognizable as Thomas Jefferson, which obscures the majority of the black women underneath.

[00:58:39] Titus Kaphar: So that painting was damaged three times in the exhibition that you saw. 

[00:58:45] Enrique Chagoya: Wow.

[00:58:45] Titus Kaphar: So, um, first from, uh, I think it was a kid, I think it was a kid they saw on the camera. He tried to rip, um, the canvas off. Um, and I think he was just trying to see the naked lady underneath. I think that was all that was. Um, but then the other two times it was a, it was an adult. Um, and, uh, you know, I guess they just didn't like, well, I'm gonna put it this way. I guess they just don't likethe truth. 

[00:59:13] Enrique Chagoya: Right.

[00:59:13] Titus Kaphar: Because, like, that's, you know, all that is, is a conversation about what actually happened, right? A conversation about Thomas Jefferson and Sally Mae Hemings and a relationship that a founding father had with a 14 year old girl. Um, and so I, I, I was not surprised that the painting was damaged. Um, especially when they told me about this whole murder boarding exercise in the beginning. Um, but it, it definitely has, has made me think about the impact that the work that I make and the work that I see in the world has on other people who, who disagree, um, politically, politically, um, with what, um, what we're, we're talking about. Um, so. And for me, most of my work, even stuff has political, even stuff, as political as that, uh, are really rooted in personal experience that Behind the Myth of Benevolence painting started as a result of a conversation I was having with an American history, um, high school teacher, um, who was trying to convince me that Thomas Jefferson was a benevolent slave owner. And, uh, I just, I just was just profoundly confused by the combination of those words together. Benevolent slave owner, I just didn't, and I tried to ask her, I don't know what you mean by that. Can you help me understand what you mean by that? And, uh, she didn't, she just wouldn't answer Um, and so I found myself in the studio working on this painting. So, um, in my practice, that's generally how stuff happens. My obsession with George Washington occurred because my family has said with no, no sort of historical evidence that we hailed from, uh, um, Mount Vernon, um, George Washington's plantation. And I don't know that that's true. And I started doing some research to sort of find out. And my, that really began my obsession with, um, George Washington. Um, trying to, trying to understand my family's relationship to that particular, um, plantation. 

[01:01:28] Enrique Chagoya: Can I ask a question on George Washington too? I mean, that's a very good subject. Uh, have you heard the controversy in San Francisco about the Victor Arnautoff murals in the Washington high school? Uh, there, there was a... Native American, uh, a mother who wanted to paint over a mural depicting Washington with a critical perspective. With criticizing Washington for being a slave owner, um, for killing Native Americans. That's, that's what the mural describes. Uh, and it was painted by this Russian immigrant. His name is Victor Arnautoff. And it's a huge mural. He studied with Diego Rivera. Eventually joined the communist party. I mean, he was somebody who was answering his own time. He painted some murals at the Stanford. He also got in trouble for some of those. Eventually he was teaching at Stanford for about 20 years. To make this story short, this Native American more wanted the mural destroyed. She was saying that her son was traumatized by the imagery and the, the board of education in San Francisco, agreed with her. And they were about to destroy the mural. Uh, then there was a huge protest in the opposite direction saying, no, why do you want to do that? This mural is criticizing Washington and it's from 1930. 

[01:03:13] Titus Kaphar: Wow. 

[01:03:14] Enrique Chagoya: You know, at that time nobody was criticizing Washington. And uh, and then it went back and forth. They say no, because it's painted by a white artist and I'm tired of a white person telling me my history. But this is the other parts of the story. There was a similar discussion in the 1970s on an African-American artist. Who was actually somebody you might know is a friend, a good friend of mine, uh, Dewey Crumpler. Dewey, uh, you know Dewey, okay?

[01:03:47] Titus Kaphar: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:03:48] Enrique Chagoya: Ok Good. Great. So you will love to read about this story because Dewey was invited in the 1970s to paint a new version of the same history and maybe more celebrate Native Americans, African-Americans, people of color, in the mural rather than depicting them being killed or exploited. And Dewey Crumpler accepted on the condition that they should not destroy the mural by Victor Arnautoff because he agreed with the content of the mural. But he wanted to do something more positive. They wanted to do that and they agree. So in today's controversy, which is still going on, Dewey Crumpler still defends the mural. 

[01:04:36] Titus Kaphar: Wow.

[01:04:36] Enrique Chagoya: And the fact that there is, now there are two murals. Dewey Crumpler is right next to that, uh, the Victor Arnautoff mural and the Victor Arnautoff mural, which is by the way, is really beautiful. And it brings all of these issues of extremes, CRS. yes...

[01:04:58] Titus Kaphar: So like do, so where do you stand on that? What are your, what are your thoughts on that? 

[01:05:03] Enrique Chagoya: Uh, I signed, I signed a petition to protect the mural. Because I believe it would be censorship. Uh, uh, and also the fact that even the mural, the artist's intention is not racist. It's not, uh, pro slavery. Is not against Native Americans. Uh history is very painful. History is very painful. When I read about the destruction of the books in Mexico, I almost cried too. But that's what happened in history. And I, I, I, don't want to forget about it. So but... 

[01:05:44] Titus Kaphar: Yeah, I think, I think, um, I think there's a similar conversation happening nationally about monuments. And I am, I don't think I have the perspective that most people think that I ought to have. Um, and partially, it's really rooted in what, what you're saying. Um, I always, whenever I have this conversation, I always say the same thing. Uh, if we are having a binary conversation about whether these monuments depicting racist white people should stay or go, um, and that is the dichotomy, should they stay or should they go. If it's binary, then take them down. That's fine. But I just don't think it needs to be binary. I think there are other options. And I think there are other things that should be done. Because I think when they just get taken down, um, there's so much that we forget. And it's not that history. It's how the hell was this allowed to be placed in our town squares? What bureaucratic strategies, hurdles, had to be overcome to force something like this in communities like ours? How does something, oftentimes, that's so low in quality, be esteemed high enough to be on these platforms? So my proposal has always been, yeah, you know, take them off the pedestals, but leave them in the square. And invite artists, contemporary artists, to re-engage those conversations. And so you do exactly what happened with Dewey Crumpler. You bring in a Dewey Crumpler to say, this is what they were talking about in the past. This is what we're talking about right now. And let's remember this, that, that these monuments are not periods at the end of sentences. They're commas. And we should make sure that we leave space for the people who come after us to make their mark as well. Part of the problem is the way that we think about monuments. They're like this thing and it's done and it's like, you never touch it again. And I just, in public squares, I just think it's a different, I just think we have to think about it differently. 

[01:07:49] Enrique Chagoya: Also, there is a difference between those monuments who are kind of, um, coming from a position of power. They, they are quick to get put there by the people in power. They, um, how can I put it? They glorify... 

[01:08:12] Titus Kaphar: Exactly. 

[01:08:13] Enrique Chagoya: ...the people who are, maybe if they committed crimes against humanity. It's like somebody had a monument to Hitler, do they in Germany? And it's not like, it's not like you don't want you, you don't wantt to hear about Hitler. But you don't have to put it in the public display. That's a very different experience than, let's say, a mural painted by a leftist criticizing the dominant history, actually from a position of less power. From a powerless position. And there could be many artists like that today, 

[01:08:52] Titus Kaphar: Yeah, I'm actually proposing that, we allow those, I mean, I guess that painting right there is a sort of, an answer to that. Um, that we allow contemporary artists to bring that critique on these dominant cultural portrayals of these men from the past who had, uh, we'll say checkered pasts. Right. 

[01:09:19] Enrique Chagoya: Right.

[01:09:19] Titus Kaphar: Um, and so I think, so my, my practice, even though I do these whitewashings, um, my practice is really not about attempting to erase the bad things in history. It's not about that. Um, in any way, shape or form. I'm not trying to erase that. I don't think that's what... 

[01:09:36] Enrique Chagoya: No.

[01:09:37] Titus Kaphar: I, I don't think that I'm empowered enough to be able to erase the past. I really, I don't. But going back to the painting that we were just looking at with George Washington, it's about trying to make sure that the whole conversation is happening, right? So like, in this painting, you know, this is, uh, this, that, the shreds that you're seeing on his face are actually, it is a, um, a ledger of all of the names of the enslaved black people on George Washington's plantation. 

[01:10:09] Enrique Chagoya: Right.

[01:10:09] Titus Kaphar: And those names are nailed to his face. And so, he was still the president... 

[01:10:18] Adrienne: Here we're looking at a nine-foot painting by Titus of George Washington, sitting on a white horse called Shadows of Liberty. A rocky landscape stretches behind him meeting a sky full of clouds illuminated by a sunset of oranges, purples and blues. Washington holds a sword and is covered up to his nose and down to his shins by strips of fabric, with words written on them nailed to the surface of the painting beneath.

[01:10:39] Titus Kaphar: He's, you still, you still recognize that that's George Washington but what I'm saying is, we should never only tell part of that story. We should always tell that whole story. And so I think that there's a, there is a, um, almost, I see it as a kind of amendment strategy to dealing with these monuments and murals and all these other kinds of things. And that is that we, we are given the freedom as artists to engage those pieces and do battle with those pieces and find ways for us to create a new conversation around the truth that wasn't ever fully told in those pasts. So, I mean, I wish somebody would give me one of those monuments that they've taken down. I would, I could have an entire exhibition based on the work that I can make from those monuments. So if anybody's listening and you have access to some monuments, you can send them to my studio five, five, five, five, five, five.

[01:11:41] Enrique Chagoya: Yeah, I think that's a really good idea. I, I think, uh, uh, also, um, Kehinde Wiley is doing some versions of a different, different types of monuments. Uh, but, but yes, the, the histories that have not been told are the histories that have less power. The dominant history is what we study in conventional school books, you know, like the, the whitewash version of history that, uh, it's, we, we don't need to present that again. Uh, that doesn't mean, you know, somebody like George Washington didn't do anything positive. You know, fighting for independence, probably breaking away from our Colonial power like England was a step forward. But still, he had many issues to resolve that were not resolved until centuries, or I dunno like a century and a half later or not even not even resolved today. 

[01:12:46] Titus Kaphar: It ain't, yeah, I was about to say, it's not resolved yet. 

[01:12:48] Enrique Chagoya: No, not even resolved today. So, but, but those are the histories that need to be told. 

[01:12:53] Titus Kaphar: I think that's true. I mean, for me, I, you know, again, something I say all the time. I'm not, I'm not interested in demonizing the founding fathers. But I'm just not interested in deifying them either. 

[01:13:06] Enrique Chagoya: Right.

[01:13:07] Titus Kaphar: And that's the problem, like our history, deifies them. And so like, when you do that, when you deify something that is not a God, then you cannot tell the truth about it. You can't say what's factual. And so there has to be some, there has to be some space for critique. And it can't be, it can't be this version of history that we've been fed for generation after generation. Um, there has to be some critical thinking about this. I mean, just, just basic science requires that. Right? Like, uh, Thomas Jefferson's, uh, family had been refuting the idea that, uh, there was a relationship between him and Sally May Hemmings. Well, now we got DNA. So, you know, science tells us you were fucking lying. So like, now we know, now we have to change that. Now we have to write the books again. Now we have to say it differently. We have to, we're, you know, he still gets to, you know, write all the American documents that he got to write. But we also got to talk about Sally. And we also got to talk about the rest of the people on that plantation. Right? They can't be told, you can't tell half the story anymore. 

[01:14:21] Enrique Chagoya: Right. I think in a way, the truth is something that people with privelage does not want to hear. 

[01:14:33] Titus Kaphar: Right, right. 

[01:14:34] Enrique Chagoya: Especially because they will be affected by it. And that happened in history like a Monarch, like absolutist Monarchs in Europe, uh, they, they were against science. They weren't against, uh, you know, the, the enlightenment. Which eventually created the French Revolution of course, or the American Revolution, as well. But, you know, they, they weren't against science. They were against the idea that the, the world was different than everything decided by a God. God put the Monarch in power and therefore cannot never be changed. And then somebody questioned that. After they receive something even more extreme. Somebody who preaches or many people who make money of preaching lies about, you know, the last election. January six. You know, uh, the vaccines. it's mostly benefiting people who make money out of it. And uncovering people who has a lot of power too loose. Like the former president and his allies and the corruption behind them. I mean, but I mean, we, we, we as artists, artists personally, I think we, as artists should feel free to just do anything that crosses our mind when you have these people that feel free and entitled to censor everybody. You know, it's like a constant conflict. And again, we're not going to stop because we cannot do something else. But let's talk more about your work now that we're seeing some of those works. I just love to see them. You know, instead of talking about these crazy people. They don't deserve the time.

[01:16:35] Titus Kaphar: Well, this is an interesting piece to talk about because, uh, as a transition, because it relates to iconography. And it relates to, um, specifically Christian icons, um, in terms of its form. Um, and I know that that's something that you've worked with in your practice quite a bit. Um, and even, even if I remember correctly, I've seen works where you use gold leaf, um, in your work as well. Um... 

[01:17:06] Adrienne: We're looking at Titus's 2020 work, my loss, an oil painting covered in tar and gold leaf on a shaped panel, similar to religious iconography. A little more than half of the bottom of the work is covered in thick black tar with a consistent texture that has light speckles across the surface. The face of a black man emerges from above the tar. We can only see his eyes, which stare straight ahead. The background behind him is flat gold.

[01:17:34] Titus Kaphar: Um, tell me, so the painting here just takes, for me, it takes, um, it takes these, well, let me step back. Uh, this is from a body of work called the Jerome Project, and I told you a little bit about what the Jerome Project was already. Um, I have two sizes of these. Um, the, there's a very small ones, which are the majority of them. And then there are a few that are, uh, 73 by 59, um, inches. And so, those ones, the larger ones are dedicated to family members and friends of mine who have been incarcerated. Um, and in, uh, in a couple of cases, they're dedicated to family members who have actually died in prison. Um, and so I'm using this, uh, I'm using this devotional, like this religious icon, devotional form, uh, in painting these men that our society is not that devoted to. Um, and I'm turning them into these kinds of, these kinds of icons for observation, meditation, understanding, thought contemplation. Um, and thinking through their life and what was lost as a result to their incarceration. So, each one of the paintings are submerged in tar or covered in tar, um, based on the amount of life that they have lost to incarceration. Um, and so... 

[01:19:09] Enrique Chagoya: I love these paintings. I saw some of these in the Bay area. Again, as I mentioned, at Stanford and at the Museum of the African Diaspora in San Francisco. I, I was really struck with them. Really powerful. Just the contrast between materials. I mean, it's beautifully painted portraiture, 

[01:19:27] Titus Kaphar: Thank you. 

[01:19:28] Enrique Chagoya: But also, the materials that you used, the extremes of gold and tar.

[01:19:34] Titus Kaphar: Yeah.

[01:19:34] Enrique Chagoya: But how they kind of compliment each other. I mean, it's one of those pieces that give me the goosebumps. It's like wow. 

[01:19:46] Titus Kaphar: I appreciate that, man. You don't know how much of a compliment that is to me. 

[01:19:50] Enrique Chagoya: Really good.

[01:19:51] Titus Kaphar: I, Yeah. That was kind of a big deal. I'm writing that down right people about what Enrique Chagoya said about my work. 

[01:19:57] Enrique Chagoya: Yeah. You might want me... feel free, but no,serioulsy, I was very struck by this. 

[01:20:07] Titus Kaphar: I appreciate that, man. I mean, no joke. I, you know, I know I, I mentioned it before. But it, when I got out to, to Connecticut, when I was at Yale, I remember being in these critiques where faculty members, very fancy faculty members, um, were criticizing my work. And, uh, there was one moment where one of the professors said, and I quote, um, this. work is so technically bad, I'm not even interested in talking about whatever politics you want to talk about. And it was really a push to kind of shush the political conversation, the social conversation, the critical conversation, that I was having. Had I not had the experience of being raised on a Rupert Garcia, uh, and Enrique Chagoya, um, I might've shrunk back a little bit. But I knew that there was legitimacy to the conversation that I was happening based on, you know, no offense, my elders that came before me and showed me how to put it down. So, it means a lot, it means a lot to me that, that the work is resonating for you, uh, for resonating for you in that, in that way, 

[01:21:27] Enrique Chagoya: Yeah, that's a, that's great. I mean, it's incredible that you got such terrible feedback. 

[01:21:35] Titus Kaphar: That wasn't even the worst. 

[01:21:36] Enrique Chagoya: It's a... 

[01:21:38] Titus Kaphar: But you know what? I'm not, I can laugh at it. I'm not bit, I'm definitely not bitter about it. I, you know, I know I'm conflicted by this idea. But I also know that it helped make me strong. 

[01:21:56] Enrique Chagoya: Right.

[01:21:57] Titus Kaphar: It helped me make me even more resilient. It helped, it helped me sharpen my thesis. Clarify my ideas. Recognize that I wasn't going to be given a pass. Um, and that sometimes you do, you do have to fight for your ideas. And so I, I didn't like it at that time. But in retrospect, retrospect, I definitely recognize that it was like, it was certainly essential for me to go through that experiences in order to become the artists that I ultimately want to become. 

[01:22:31] Enrique Chagoya: In a way, you were facing some kind of censorship as well. You know, like academic sensorship. 

[01:22:36] Titus Kaphar: Oh for sure. 

[01:22:37] Enrique Chagoya: Because, uh, it it'll happens, uh, in different levels. And, but I just want to, I'm going to say a quote from, uh, from a book I really like that I recently gave to a friend of mine. Uh, this, uh, artist, Mildred Howard, she's another bay area artist. Do know Mildred?

[01:22:59] Titus Kaphar: Yes. 

[01:23:00] Enrique Chagoya: Ok.

[01:23:00] Titus Kaphar: See, this is the thing, this is the thing, like when I was at Yale, I was quoting these people. I was talking about these artists from the Bay area and they were looking at me like, we don't know who you're talking about. And I'm just like, what? How is the art world so regional? I don't understand that, anyway, go ahead. Mildred Howard. 

[01:23:19] Enrique Chagoya: So, so anyway, Mildred Howard got vandalized. Her last exhibition in New York. That was about two months ago or something like that. Earlier this year, she had an installation of, of soldiers from the first World War. Uh, you know, African-American man multiplied in about a hundred of them in a panel. And then she stole that in a gallery and the gallery was, was, uh, facing the street. I think it was, uh, I'm trying to remember the gallery. I don't know if it was in the Bronx or, uh, or Harlem. I don't remember it right now. But, um, the thing is somebody paint very racist statements on the windows and Mildred was very, very um stress about it. And we've been friends forever. I mean, I that's one of the first friends I've made since about 30, 30 years ago when I first moved to the Bay area. I used to bring coffee to her. We used to have a studio next to each other. And sometimes she would not sleep over night. I would bring coffee in the morning, you know, things like that.

[01:24:33] Titus Kaphar: Amazing. 

[01:24:34] Enrique Chagoya: Um, uh, the croissants or whatever. Anyways, I love Mildred. And, uh, I, I, I read a statement from Don Quixote, this novel by Cervantes, uh, to her. And it's is a story where Don Quixote and his companion, Sancho Panza, are riding his horse and the mule next to each other and the dogs around them are barking at them really loud. And Sancho Panza, I mean uh Don Quixote says to Sancho Panza, hey, Sancho, the dogs are barking at us. That means we are moving forward. So I wrote that to Mildred. I said Mildred, this is what I think about your show. Please keep moving forward. And she totally, she wrote back me. She was totally... 

[01:25:36] Titus Kaphar: I love that.

[01:25:37] Enrique Chagoya: Because that's what happened. 

[01:25:38] Titus Kaphar: Where's she at now? She still, is she still in the Bay? 

[01:25:41] Enrique Chagoya: Yeah, she's in Oakland. She has a studio in Oakland. Um, right now she's, uh, uh, next door with Hung Liu, studio Hung Liu's another artists from the bay area you might know. 

[01:25:53] Titus Kaphar: Yeah, I know. 

[01:25:55] Enrique Chagoya: Yeah, another good friends. And so they, she's, her studio is right next to Hung's. So, uh, it's, that's the local community. I'm glad you are familiar with all of these artists because... 

[01:26:08] Titus Kaphar: Yeah, man. I mean, I like the Bay area, uh, the, the, the, the generation of y'all that, that went to teach, um, were activists. 

[01:26:20] Enrique Chagoya: Right.

[01:26:21] Titus Kaphar: You were, I dunno how else to put it. You were activists. Teaching wasn't just something that you were doing to pay the bills. 

[01:26:27] Enrique Chagoya: Right.

[01:26:28] Titus Kaphar: Um, it was about inspiration and activating the next generation. And so, I, do I know these artists? Yeah, I know these artists. This was bread and butter to me, man. 

[01:26:41] Enrique Chagoya: I'm so glad. I, I'm, the only thing I'm sorry, is that I didn't get to know you more when you were in the Bay area. I can't believe that Stanford rejected you.

[01:26:53] Titus Kaphar: Well, if you had let me into school, then we could have resolved that. But you know... 

[01:26:57] Adrienne: That's a great full circle moment. It's been so great to hear, sort of, influence and admiration you guys have for each other and all these connections. Um, because we're having this conversation within the, uh, context of the National Academy of Design, um, and you both spoke so much about the country and sort of the blemishes that the history of the country carries with it as, as a historical institution, we carry these same blemishes. And so I'm curious about your thoughts and perspectives on what it means to be a member of a National Academy and what a National Academy should be. Keeping in mind, we were founded by artists. You know, this is an institution that is by artists and for artists. So what does that mean to you?

[01:27:43] Enrique Chagoya: You want to go first, Titus? 

[01:27:46] Titus Kaphar: I don't know how to answer that question. I really don't.

[01:27:50] Enrique Chagoya: I have a quick answer. I think that this is the best part of being part of the Academy To get you know somebody like Titus, if anything. I was very happy to read through the list of artists that belong the Academy. There is a lot of, many diverse, it's a diversified membership. Uh, that made a difference for me. In the beginning. I didn't know anything about the Academy. I didn't, I mean, to be honest, I, uh, I said great, I've being nominated to this. Uh, uh, but then I, I saw the list of people who were there and then I was honored to be part of it. But I personally, I'm not into academies myself. I'm not into, I mean, I went to, I think the real work is outside of academy. So, uh, I, I'm an Academician though. My practice, but I'm a contradiction in myself. But... 

[01:28:49] Titus Kaphar: That's the cognitive dissonance. 

[01:28:51] Enrique Chagoya: No, but even sometimes academia understands that. That you have to be outside reaching out to the real world. So, I think it's a, it's a matter of connecting more with more people. So if the Academy has to do anything, has to connect to people. And in universities right now, including my own, there's a big effort to, to bring change. Since, you know, Black Lives Matter movement brought out a lot of other things that have been dormant. Now everybody seems to be more aware. They support for change. We are moving in a more open direction. So, so I, I can see something like that in the National Academy of Design.. So I hope that continues.

[01:29:46] Titus Kaphar: I mean, he said everything. I mean, don't know. I don't know what you want to say. Look, honestly, can I be honest? So like, it was, it was, I hadn't the slightest idea. I have no idea. People are like, it's this great honor. And I was like, cool. Like what, what, what happens? Like what do they do? Or what is, how am I now empowered as a result of this? Or does this mean that they're going to come to New Haven and, and work in my community here? I don't, I don't know what it means. And that is a problem. And so like, if I'm, if I'm a representative, which I don't, you know, I'm not in that way, somebody decided to make a decision and include me in the thing. And I, I, grace, I graciously said, thank you. I appreciate the acknowledgement. But if, as an institution. You really want to make those connections between artists and make the, and do that work. Y'all got to get at that because I, um, I don't know anyone who is included in it who has been able to give me a clear explanation of what it actually means. So I, um, I'm just being honest. 

[01:31:10] Adrienne: You're 100% reflecting on our hopes for the future. And we're very aware of the historical perception of the institution. We're very aware of the missed opportunities and are actively internally working to change that. My main job is to make sure you guys feel empowered to use the Academy to activate change in your community. To make sure that we're visible outwardly. You know, not just a regional New York city institution that's bringing in just people to talk about their exhibitions. But we're asking artists how they want to have impact. What they want their legacy to be. How we can support that. And what, what does it mean to be an academy of artists who have this, sort of, influence and ability to have impact. We're collective power amongst the membership. And my, my job is to help facilitate that change led by ideas and passions of you, you, all. Of you members of the Academy. 

[01:32:11] Titus Kaphar: I have an idea. 

[01:32:12] Adrienne: Great. Let's hear it.

[01:32:13] Titus Kaphar: Collective power. I think that the academy should contemplate art donations. How to manage art donations from the artists to institutions where in the artists gets the tax benefit from the donation. Um, as it stands right now, if I give you my painting, you can donate my painting to an institution and you can get a tax write off for that painting. And I can write off the materials that I use to make it. Um, it's set up to protect wealthy collectors. It's set up to benefit wealthy collectors. It's set up to empower the collectors over the artists. And so, I this is something that I've been thinking about for quite some time because, uh, I, I'm sure Enrique gets asked regularly by different organizations to donate artwork for this or that organizations. This or that, um, auction. Um, and what people don't seem to realize when we do that, it's out of, it's, it's pure generosity. That, um, that artist gains and also loses, um, a lot in that situation. But gains very little.

[01:33:35] Enrique Chagoya: I totally agree with Titus. Uh, this is an issue where, it's more like a political move that maybe some institution or the National Academy could do. Because it's a long, it has a long history with, I mean, since Rauschenberg. Rauschenberg tried to get percentage of resales of artwork to the artists. And for a while in California, we have like a 4%, uh, royalties from anybody who re-sell your work. But there was four paws, mostly where people like Christie's, uh, Sotheby's , you know, because they don't want to give any percentage to anybody. Just all for themselves. And they always argue, and they have lobbyists. You know, we don't. 

[01:34:22] Titus Kaphar: Exactly. 

[01:34:23] Enrique Chagoya: So, so it's, it's, uh, I think what Titus raised is, it's important. I don't know if the Academy might be able to do anything about it. But I hope they at least put it in the heads of politicians that, that's something that could benefit the arts, communities like the NXTHVN Art School. Um, and yes, if we donate artwork, we should get tax donation. I mean tax deductions on those donations. Because we also have to pay taxes... 

[01:34:57] Titus Kaphar: I think it would also change the nature of the work. 

[01:35:00] Enrique Chagoya: ... on top of that.

[01:35:01] Titus Kaphar: They could also change the nature of the work that you donate, right? 

[01:35:04] Enrique Chagoya: Right.

[01:35:04] Titus Kaphar: Like, you know, you could, the piece that you were talking about that can't go in someone's home, would it be perfect for an institution. And an institution would loan it? And so an institution has to wait until some collector says, okay, I'll, I'll buy it. And then, and then, and then you're, you, you, you don't really get anything out of that. And I just don't think, I don't think that's balanced. And as far as I can see, it's the, it's the collective of the Academy that could be powerful. I'm also nervous about that as an idea. Because an Academy always defines itself by who is not in it and who is in it. Right? And so it's like who's in and who's out. And that makes me nervous because we both make work about our cultures is that were often out of things. And not included in things. And so, when I, when organizations decide in this time to include me in stuff, I'm super suspicious. I'm super, super suspicious of why. And I have to ask myself, is this doing more for you than it is for me? Because you get to say Enrique Chagoya is a part of this. That gives you some street credibility that maybe you didn't have. If his name wasn't on there. 

[01:36:23] Adrienne: Well one, I, I want to address two points. What you just said, I fully understand and agree with that. And I think the thing that really sort of sold me on working with the National Academy is that we were founded by artists actually in reaction to an academy that was being formed by collectors and patrons. And so this was the artist's reaction. And granted this was 200 years ago. So the, the, the history that you guys have been addressing and your work and talking about, it's, it's kind of what Enrique was saying about George Washington. Of like, yeah, he moved this thing forward, but like, uh, he was doing these other things. Similar in our histories, the blemishes that America has, we have as an institution. So, in, in one way, um, I, just to address it, like, the Academy has been, um, working for artists and has stumbled and been awkward and how it's trying to do that. The question about the artists, um, donating work, we've actually actively been having that conversation. Um, we are not an advocacy, sort of like, political advocacy organization. However, you're right. We have power in the collective. We have power to create symposiums and panels and conversations to, you know, engage with the larger public and politicians in these conversations with the names and and the power of the collective behind it. And we also have the ability to adjust how we manage our own donations and navigating those relationships so that a collector understands that you are, you are facilitating a donation for this artist through buying and donating the work. So that it's not the artist who is always in the deficit in that area. So I, I just want to say all of the things to say, like, I want to hear these conversations. I want you guys to see the academy as a place that can help facilitate these conversations on a larger scale. And this larger community your part of, where we can be the conduit to bring these people into it so that we have that collective power.

[01:38:20] Titus Kaphar: Awesome. 

[01:38:21] Enrique Chagoya: Great.

[01:38:22] Adrienne: Well, thank you so much for your time.

[01:38:23] Enrique Chagoya: Wonderful. 

[01:38:25] Titus Kaphar: Excellent.

[01:38:25] Enrique Chagoya: Thank you so much.

[01:38:26] Adrienne: Thank you guys so much for participating.

[01:38:29] Titus Kaphar: Alright everybody. Thank you Enrique.

[01:38:31] Enrique Chagoya: Thank Hey, it was great meeting you Titus 

[01:38:34] Titus Kaphar: A pleasure meeting you too. Again. 

[01:38:35] Enrique Chagoya: Alright, bye Leon. Bye Adrienne.

[01:38:38] Titus Kaphar: Bye Leon.

[01:38:39] Adrienne: Bye.

[01:38:43] You're listening to the Exquisite Corpse podcast.

[01:38:53] This conversation feels like it's the beginning of a new friendship and I'm excited to watch it grow. I'm also interested in the ideas of how we can amplify the collective power of the Academicians. For more information on the people, places and artwork they discuss in the episode, please visit our website National Academy.org and visit the Exquisite Corpse episode page. 

[01:39:16] Next episode, we hear a conversation between two old friends who get to pick up where they left off before the pandemic.

[01:39:24] Michelle Grabner: We recently had a extraordinary opportunity to walk through the Koons Tala Basel together. 

[01:39:30] Stephen Westfall: Just before the COVID hit, yeah. 

[01:39:33] Michelle Grabner: Yes. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for that. Yeah, it was, I think December, uh, before 2020. So it must have been December 19. And to look that deeply with somebody who I know also looks that deeply, is, it's very special. And, uh, I always appreciate, um, um, those conversations. Um, and when we get the opportunity to be together in front of artwork, um, uh, I think it's extraordinary.

[01:39:58] Adrienne: I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did, we'll be back with the next one in a couple of weeks. I'll see you next time.

[01:40:07] Thank you for supporting the National Academy by listening to the Exquisite Corpse podcast. If you'd like to support us by donating, please visit our website National Academy.org. 

[01:40:17] This podcast wouldn't be possible without the help of our summer intern, Leon Caleb, Christian and our programs assistant Angelique Owens.

[01:40:26] Our podcast is produced mixed and edited by Mike Clemow and Wade Strange at SeeThru Sound.