Exquisite Corpse: Contemporary Conversations
Exquisite Corpse: Contemporary Conversations is a podcast series from the National Academy of Design featuring conversations between National Academicians. This podcast is a space for the artists and architects who have shaped this institution to connect, discuss, and ask questions of each other. National Academy Director of Programs and Series Host Adrienne Elise Tarver takes you into the organization that is contending with its almost 200-year history and finding its place in the 21st century.
Exquisite Corpse: Contemporary Conversations
Wendy Evans Joseph NA + Billie Tsien NA
In this episode of Exquisite Corpse, architects Wendy Evans Joseph and Billie Tsien discuss the art-centered roots of their friendship and the experiential nature of architecture. They discuss what it means to alter or create an experience and how they practice patience with projects in the public realm.
They touch on their various projects that alter how the public engages with an environment, such as Wendy’s back-of-house glass box for the Music Hall at Snug Harbor Cultural Center or Billie’s project for David Geffen Hall, at the Lincoln Center where her firm restructured the lobby to be more inviting and multifunctional. Both invested in community engagement, they share a mutual admiration for producing projects that deepen public connection.
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Hi, I'm Adrian Elise Tarver.
Anjelic Owens:And I'm an Angelique Owens.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And we are the host of the National Academy Podcast, Exquisite Corpse.
Anjelic Owens:This podcast is a series of conversations between artists and architects who've been elected by their peers to the National Academy of Design for their extraordinary contributions to art and culture in America. These are the National Academicians, and they're at the core of the oldest artist-run organization in the United States. This is Exquisite Corpse.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Welcome back to the podcast.
Anjelic Owens:Yes, live from the conference room.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:We're so excited for another in-person recording. We're here at the National Arts Club in Gramercy Park, New York. Where we've are sitting across the table from each other, which normally we're sitting across computer screens in digital space. So, always nice to be here in person. Which we were also in person with our guests for today.
Anjelic Owens:Yes, it was a lovely affair.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:But before we get to that, as always, our historical acknowledgement.
Yasmeen Siddiqui:Hi, my name is Yasmeen Siddiquii. And I'm the Communications Manager at the National Academy of Design. The National Academy of Design was initiated by artists and architects to fill a void in the American artistic landscape of the 19th century. But we recognize our history has excluded many communities and cultures whose lineages and practices must be included in this country's art, historical canon. Indigenous peoples, people of color, queer and non-binary individuals, and people with different abilities. We are committed to a process of dismantling the ongoing legacies of settler colonialism and white supremacy. We are excited to move forward and have conversations that reflect the important questions and issues of today. We are the National Academy of Design, and you are listening to Exquisite Corpse.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I can't wait for everybody to hear this episode. We have two architects, Wendy Evans Joseph and Billie Tsien. This is actually our first architect to architect conversation. Even though we've had multiple architects already.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah. Honestly, I, I was actually really excited to see we have two architects, uh, that are also women, as well.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting because we've learned so much from past conversations from the architects. And they've always been, so far, in conversation with artists. So, I was really curious to know what they were gonna talk about.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah, no. Honestly, I was curious about, they were speaking about. And I was curious to see whether they would even bring up art at all, actually.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah, I mean, I guess I understand, I think we understand, that like art and architecture aren't separate, you know?
Anjelic Owens:Mm-hmm.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:At the National Academy, they are both underneath our, sort of, umbrella. And so we understand their linkages.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:But also, they are talked about separately, often outside of our organization.
Anjelic Owens:Yes, that is really true.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:But I mean, it was exciting to see. And a little insight for the audience, you will hear them talk about art. They actually start talking about art. So, it actually is a huge part of their lives and like, how they look at things and think about things. So, I thought that was great.
Anjelic Owens:Yes. I was not expecting them to share how much they really enjoy, like, going to see art. Their art crawls. I thought that was really exciting. To see that's like at the crux of their, their friendship, as well.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah, and so they know each other, we actually know them from previous National Academy of Design...
Anjelic Owens:mm-hmm.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:...activities. Wendy is the president of the membership of the National Academy. And has been for some time. And they've both been jurors. And Wendy is a current juror for the Abbey Mural prize. So, there's this interaction we've already had with them. So, we know them a bit. But they've actually known each other for years themselves.
Anjelic Owens:Yes. And I love when there's ongoing or existing friendship. Cuz you never know like, what they actually learn about each other in real time.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:What I love about this podcast is, old friends will discover new things because it creates a space for people to sit down and have conversations that, even if you're seeing each other for lunch or you know, at various events, you might not be sitting down and talking about your lives in this way. So, it's really fun to see those moments happen.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah, definitely.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Speaking of sitting down together live, um, there's a few caveats for this episode. As we gather together in person, we're in an imperfect recording scenario. And you'll hear probably some remnants of that. Our editors are magicians and we will do our best. But we're in a, a situation where there's a New York City window behind us. You might hear a little bit of that. There's two offices next to us with people, you know, actively working. But we're, you know, we're in it together to create this podcast. And, um, we're excited to bring you this really great conversation.
Anjelic Owens:Yes, exactly. We, just think of it as texture. You know, added ambiance. So, um, let's get into it.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:So I just wanna start with both of you, you know, introducing yourself. Basically the main point is to say your full name. You can add whatever you want to the end of that. So I'm gonna start with you, Wendy.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:Hi, I'm Wendy Evans Joseph. I'm an architect and exhibition designer, and my firm is Studio Joseph.
Billie Tsien:Hello, I'm Billie Tsien. And I'm an architect practicing in New York. Primarily for nonprofit and cultural institutions. And I'm a friend of Wendy's.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Thank you two for joining. So, excited to have you both. This is actually our first architect to architect conversation. Even though you are not our first architects on the podcast. So, I'm really excited. And also, just because I'm also excited about your practices. So I'm gonna start you off with one question. And you guys can go from there wherever you want. So, Wendy, we reached out to you to ask if you would participate on the podcast and ask who you'd like to speak to. And you chose Billie. Can you tell us why?
Wendy Evans Jospeh:Sure. And I think it's interesting that you mentioned, this being the first architect to architect conversation. Because when I think about my friendship and my ongoing conversation with Billie, yes, we're both architects. And that is a defining label. But the reason that we have such a good conversation is that it's not just about architecture. But really about everything else. And so, in a way, it's almost rare that we speak of architecture. And so what we share, and the reason that I ask Billie to come today, is that we share a real passion for culture and the arts, for travel. And as well for friendship with others. Reading and family life. And so for us, it's not so much about dividing our lives into different pieces. But it's kind of assembling something that makes sense and revolves around the things that have meaning for us.
Billie Tsien:So beautifully said. And I think truly encapsulates what we talk about when we talk. In many ways, I think architecture has always been focused on the object. And so, it is always about looking at this building as a thing. And I see it now a lot with my students who pretty much are always modeling in Rhino their buildings as things. And I think what Wendy and I share, is a belief that the experience is more important than the thing. And so, when you talk about all of those pieces of one's life that surround, you know, let's say architecture, it all actually is what forms our architecture. It's experience that forms what we do. So, when we talk about architecture, we talk about the life around it. And one of my favorite writers is MFK Fisher who writes about food. And she says, and I'm not gonna get the quote right, but when you talk about food, you talk about love. And you know the wanting of love. And I think when you talk about architecture, you're talking about experience.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Maybe you can tell me a little bit about some of your shared experiences. As you've talked about, you know, your friendship is about these other elements and not just the work that you both do.
Billie Tsien:We could talk about art crawls.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:I think that's a great idea.
Billie Tsien:You go first.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:Well, let's just go back a minute to this idea about being architects and what that means. And I find that a lot of architects, their experience is what they do themselves and what they look at. And most architects are looking at other architecture. They're looking at what architects do at spaces. And they travel to look at architecture. When we're together, we're really looking outside of that. We're looking at, as we were, you were saying before about the spaces between buildings. Other things, but we're also looking a lot in the art world. Now that's physical art, conceptual art, digital art. It's also the arts in general. Sometimes, you know, music and theater. But the fun thing about living in New York is that we are living in the epicenter of the creative world here. And we love to just walk the streets of Chelsea. Or walk the streets of the city. Go to museums. See special shows. Look for the things that we know are going to be there. I mean, we are good campers. We do our research. But how nice to walk into the gallery next door and find something that you didn't expect. I don't know. When we spend those Saturdays, what is it that hits you, sort of?
Billie Tsien:I very much, like you're saying that, it's the gallery next door. Because those things that are not expected are sometimes the most powerful. And you know, so Wendy will text me or say, are you free on Saturday? Let's do an art crawl. And we sort of meet, oh, part, very important part of that is eating. So, it's looking at art. Being surprised. Being bored sometimes. We're not easy critics because we spend our whole life being critical about everything. But there always has to be a meal in there somewhere.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:I think that's part of the whole experience. And I think that the meal in looking at art. The conversation around the art. I think it goes back to what you were saying about creating places for things to happen rather than sort of focusing too much on the object itself. And that, to me, is part of this texture of the city. And of what we're doing. It's, sort of, that everything, sort of, is collage together. And you don't separate out one's experience. It's not sort of purest or modernist in that way. It's a much more, that kind of collage and letting things happen. The noise. The sound of it. Sort of everything around your experience. It helps.
Billie Tsien:Well, I was just, that kind of reminds me, in many ways of the design installations I've seen that you've done. That, whether it's Museum of the City of New York or in Washington DC, the Museum of American Indian. Or actually once you did something in the American Bible Museum, which I think was the Donatello show.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:That's right.
Billie Tsien:You, first of all, are not creating a single storyline. It always has layers. So, you recognize the layers of history and the story. At the same time, you're sort of pulling them apart. So, it's both coherent but not simple. And each time it's a very, very different kind of physical experience. Donatello, for me, was about light. And seeing the light on the sculpture and then seeing the sculpture through these really diaphanous curtains. So you could see form against form. But you weren't looking at the detail. You were looking at form against form in the light. And then at the Museum of the City of New York, it was such a complicated story. But it was both focusing, pulling back and then pulling into some very particular object. So, it's pulling back, pulling in. So, each time the experience is both physical. But it's also mental. And it also makes use of the things we generally use as architects. Which is, you know, sequence, movement through space, modulation of light. But always specific to the material that you're working on.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:I think it's interesting, you bring up the museum and the City of New York project. And I've had a long relationship with that institution. But the project that we did called Starlight in the lobby came about because I was there with the museum director, then Susan Henshaw Jones. We were walking around and the building had just had a, um, makeover been renovated. And she said to me, it's great here. Looks great, functions. But it has no soul. And I think that this idea of finding the soul of a place is really key. And so I said to her, that's it? That's, that's the program? Architects were used to people like, you know, how many square feet of this or that? Or what do you, what do you want me to do? She says, I don't know. Think of something. You know, maybe we need a big seating element. I was like, all right, let me think about it. And with that, I kind of looked up and saw a, kind of, very old chandelier. Which, you know, even saying the word chandelier is in itself a dating thing. Hanging from the ceiling. And I thought, this is really dragging the soul of the place down. And what we need to do is think of something that will be uplifting and create a sort of a sense of place that's sparkling and dynamic. And creates a dialogue between today and the historic interior. And that was how Starlight came about. Which is this light fixture. And in fact, Billie, you helped me with it because you had recommended Kensun.
Billie Tsien:Yeah.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:Who's a light expert. And he came in and helped me to, sort of, think about how to make all these LED lighting diodes. So, I think part of it is having an idea. And the other part, of course, is executing that and having a team and a collaboration of people who, sort of, share your vision and can make that happen. And so that's what happened at the museum. The fun part now with that, cuz it's been a few years, is that, people get married underneath the light fixture.
Billie Tsien:Oh.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:It's so nice. It's sort of a Huppah, uh, for things. And people do that. And recently it was featured in Sex in the City. So, that's when you know you've really arrived.
Billie Tsien:Who got married in it? Or did Sarah Jessica Parker simply walk through?
Wendy Evans Jospeh:Oh, she just was there adjacent and that was in the glow. Uh, it was good enough.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:That makes me think about, and like, wonder what your experience is of other people's experiences. Especially significant moments, you know, pop culture. But a wedding is passed down through generations and images. Your place as creator spaces that then becomes like central to other people's experiences.
Billie Tsien:I think watching people enjoy the space and not look at the architecture, but enjoy the space gives me, incredible pleasure. I mean, one of the things that's happened with our work at the David Geffen Hall at Lincoln Center was that they very much, as does every single public institution now, want to make the space feel more open to more people. And so, in the lobby we put in a 40 foot long digital screen. And then a lot of seating. Good wifi, good coffee, good bar. And it was meant to say, you don't have to go to a concert in order to come to the lobby. Cuz in the past it was very cold. There was no place to sit down. You could be with your kids and you just need to get warm and, you know, have 'em sit down for a minute or use the bathroom. And you're welcome here. And so what started to happen is that, I walk by and I see people just hanging out. And they're not hanging out because it has anything to do with the architecture or the ceiling details or anything. It's because it's a comfortable place. And during concerts they livestream the concert. So, you don't have to buy a ticket. You can just go there and sit. So, let's say, you don't wanna see a symphony. But you're there and you can sit and you know, have a drink and then go on. Or you're there with your kids and you can't go into the symphony. But you can sit there for five minutes and go on. So it's really changed the nature of the space. And it has to do with programming. And not to do with the details. That said, we made a space where lots of different kinds of programming can happen. So, sometimes it's the invisible things that make places useful for more people.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:Yeah. I find that place extremely attractive in every sense of the word. I just telling you, as soon as it opened, I marched over there and just immediately I walked in and felt very welcome. And I am not a person who goes to the symphony very often. I hadn't been in the building that much. It's certainly very formal and austere. And all of a sudden everything, sort of, taken down a notch. I felt like I'd walked into the living room of a friend. And I could inhabit and be there. And maybe even talk to the per, another person who I didn't know.
Billie Tsien:Yeah.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:Because there's this new sense of community where you feel a safe place and yet it's not overly intimate that you would feel that you, you have to participate in different ways. So, I think it changes the whole notion of what Lincoln Center can be.
Billie Tsien:Yeah.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:Doing Geffen-Holland. Actually, my thought is that where to do them all over again. Watch out. Metropolitan Opera and the ballet. Because, what it becomes is, it changes the nature of the courtyard to being that sort of center space between a series of inhabitable places. And it's not about looking down on things or through glass or whatever. But it's all about participation in a different way. I, I wanna say one other thing about, what you're talking about, about community in place. And a lot of our practices, both of our practices, is working with museums.
Billie Tsien:Mm-hmm.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:And as a result of the 2020 Covid pandemic when everyone went home, and as well as the murder of George Floyd and a lot of strengthening, political unrest, and a chance for all of us to sort of rethink who we are individually. But also rethink our practices and rethink who we are as a society. It was a chance too, back to museums, for them to, sort of, as a group, to think about why it is that their doors are not necessarily open wide enough to all people. And that there are many people who do not feel welcome at museums. You can say things like, oh, they don't see themselves. But actually it's very true. They literally don't see themselves. Collections are not necessarily as diverse as they should be. And museums need to think again about what it is that would attract different audiences. What makes people feel welcome. And so I have rethought a lot of what we've been doing in the studio in those terms. And working with institutions, not just in the galleries. But before you get to the galleries to, sort of, be at the front door. And think like, why would you come here? What is it that the museum has to offer? And how do you engage in, sort of, thinking about art, about culture, about nature and society. Whatever it is, as part of this learning experience together in a museum?
Billie Tsien:Yeah, I mean, I think that really ties into, um, this great interest in public space. And so, the way people can start to feel comfortable coming into an institution, is the public space around it.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:Think about what you did at the Barns, for example. In taking something that was so insular. And by adding these big public spaces, changing the whole nature, the whole dynamic of sharing the collection, sharing art. But in a way that people could understand it or make a tie to the city.
Billie Tsien:I mean, I think, and I didn't feel this way as a younger architect. Because I thought, as we all did, it's all about the thing. The building. Because that's what you're taught in school. I more and more feel that whatever experience, it's a combination of the exterior of the landscape with the building, and neither one is more important than the other. So, you know, it used to be you would design the building and then the landscape architect had five feet beyond the borders of your building. And then they would do that, everything five feet beyond. But the meeting of landscape, outdoor space with building so that they, neither of them are particularly more important than the other. But they really connect, I think allows people to feel as if they're not crossing a big threshold when they cross into an institution.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:I would say on um, a similar way, when you're thinking about the institution and crossing these barriers, I've been working with the Library of Congress. And of, course it's the Library of Congress. But what it really is, is the library of the world. The Library of the United States. The library of the people. And Dr. Hayden, who is the Librarian of Congress, one of the very few actual librarians who've been a librarian of Congress, strangely enough. But she's looking at it not necessarily as only a repository of knowledge. But a repository of knowledge that is shared throughout. And our project with her there is a new welcoming center. A new orientation gallery that brings forward what the library has to the public. And before, this is the key part, before we begin our work. And Billy, you say like, how we were taught as architects, we were taught, here's your program, start working. Before we would even start working, we had community engagement. And we went out to the local community. We tested also nationally. What is it that people think of the Library of Congress? Why would they come there? And what do they expect to find there? And how the Library of Congress can become more a part of their lives. And so, that idea of beginning a project with community engagement. Not just listening. But also like, hearing. Hearing like, what they're saying between the lines. Like, what it is, that natural inquisitiveness that people have about learning. And, you know, that's really the way to social equity. It's not necessarily in the classroom. It's through every other aspect of our lives. And anyway, so that's what I learned from Dr. Hayden. And that's what we seek to, sort of, bring into the projects. Is sort of making the program by listening.
Billie Tsien:When you said that, I thought, oh yeah, Library of Congress. And then as you were talking, it's like, what is the Library of Congress? And then I realized, I have no idea. Is it every single book that's ever been published in the United States? Is it, what is it?
Wendy Evans Jospeh:You're right. It is actually the accumulation of everything. Including the internet. Including books and publications. It is mainly a place for copyright. But it's really international. And they're taking in, you know, things on the number of 10,000 a day. So, there's lots and lots of information here. The way you have to think about it though is as, and not necessarily a, uh, trunk that's been filled and locked and put away. But think about it as a place that's the inspiration for future work. That you go there and you learn from others. And then you create something new on your own. And that's what a library is about. You know, it's about not just the accumulation of knowledge. But the use of knowledge to move forward.
Billie Tsien:I'm sorry, I'm delving into the Library of Congress cuz I didn't know you had this project. And it's such a mysterious thing. So 10,000 things a day? That's scary. So, is your Welcome Center there to orient people as to how to even start to begin to look for something when in a place where they're accumulating things at a huge rate?
Wendy Evans Jospeh:I think what the Welcome Center is doing is inviting people into the building. And then here's the architectural part of it. Which is a Thomas Jefferson building. It's an early, very formal Beaux-Art building. Very strong. Very intimidating. With a gigantic flight of stairs that takes you up and in on a piano nobile. With a lot of iconography that has absolutely no meaning to, frankly, anybody at this point. Our welcome center enters underneath the, uh, grand stair.
Billie Tsien:Mm-hmm.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:We come in the carriage entrance. And in a way, I think the people's entrance, you know? The everyday entrance. And that already sends a message. You are welcome here. Everyone is welcome here. We come in at this lower level. And what we're trying to do is talk about what knowledge is available to the public. So, not necessarily that they need to come there to learn. But to learn about what's available to them. Which can be on their website in other ways. Or to come and physically look at. And I have to say, I did do this. I physically looked at a copy of Lincoln's manuscript for the Gettysburg Address. They have it all there. And so, you can see these amazing things that are available to you. But you can also, sort of, avail yourself of, sort of, just the knowledge of the place.
Billie Tsien:When is it gonna be done?
Wendy Evans Jospeh:I don't know. In a couple of years we'll be done. It's a big project. And part of being an architect is patience.
Billie Tsien:Oh my gosh.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:And the public realm is a place, that I have driven my practice towards the public realm. But it is a more difficult place to work. And there are a lot of things we need to consider in the Library of Congress, you know, is certainly at the pinnacle of some of the things in this. I have to say that even, besides the Library of Congress, I've been working with the Folger Shakespeare Library and with the MLK Library, a public library in, in Washington. And some of the other institutions there, as you mentioned before in the National Museum of the American Indian, working in Washington does carry this weight of it being our nation's capital.
Billie Tsien:Mm-hmm
Wendy Evans Jospeh:And it also, in that, becoming actually one of the great capitals of the world. With its national, international tourism and plenty of local and regional, as well. But it's an opportunity to engage with everyone together in a place. And I find that there's a great weight to that. And a great, for me creative excitement to finding a way to be welcoming to so many different cultures and so many people.
Billie Tsien:Mm-hmm. Well, I would say it's interesting, going back to the word patience. Because I think, in many ways, a lot of the work that you do happens not temporarily. But it's transient. It is something that you see and is there for a specific period of time. And then exists only in your memory. It's not all of them. But some of them. And I was thinking about the question of patience and what it takes to be patient. Also knowing that this is an experience that will be only had for a certain length of time.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:I think that's, that's a good question. We go back to what we're thinking about and part of being an architect is this idea of bricks and mortar as the only expression of creative thought. And I think we talked about, sort of, architectural training is in a way, a lot about the outside. It's about making a shadow on Earth. And instead, a lot of the work that's had meaning for me is, sort of, getting inside of that shadow. Getting inside of there and saying, okay, then, then what it's like. Do more. And this idea of transparency. And coming inside is brought a lot of meaning. I don't worry too much about how long things will last. In a way, not to be phy philosophical, who knows?
Billie Tsien:Yeah.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:You know, ultimately the length of time that we are here is so short compared to the earth itself. And, but I do feel that making something and having a presence, even if it's flighting. Even if it's, if it's just that, sort of, way of being there and then not being there, can change people's lives. And that's the thing, that for me, will endure. It's not necessarily that they're going to come to an exhibit for however long it lasts. And stay there or live there. It's that, they'll have their lives will be changed by it. That they'll be woken up to a new way of experiencing things. And I'm really glad that you had a, a nice experience at the Donatello Show. For me, that was an amazing project. And part of it was that we were working with sculptures of incredible value in every sense of the world. But they also weighed a literal ton. So, you have a sculpture that weighs, you know, 1500, 1800 pounds. And you have to get it into place. And yet you wanted to feel light and effortless. And so the whole idea of the show was how you came upon these sculptures. And the play of revealing them to the visitor. And so what people take away from that show, they don't, they can't necessarily tell me which sculptures were in it. But they can tell me what it felt like to be there. And to sort find things. And I, I like that very much.
Billie Tsien:I think that's really beautiful and it really makes me question, actually some of my own work and what I'm doing. Because I have felt the pressure to make something, you know, the a hundred year building. The 200 year building. And in that way, much of the work is focused on a sense of weight and permanence. But as you said, it's not staying in the presence of a particular space. It's how that person feels in that space. Because inevitably the person leaves the space. I mean, even if they lived in the space, they'll leave the space. But the value really lies very much in how they feel about being there. Not that the thing itself is there. So, I think I'm becoming more and more interested in work that maybe is not so heavy. Not so precious. But is very much about creating a place where people can have. You know, a life changing, maybe not a life changing, but a day changing experience. Where sometimes very subtle shifts can really change your sort of worldview.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:I think, too, when I go to your buildings, that there's this secondary layer that you're building in. And that, that same type of feeling that people sort of have an option of experiencing the hole. But also that other layer. Sometimes you are working with textiles. So, things that are more ephemeral. The light or the light fixtures. These, these other components that bring things down in scale. But give everyone, sort of, something else to, sort of, hook into. And I think that, sometimes the architect profession is afraid of creating this kind of texture and environment. And everything is very pure and very, you know, bold. Which I love that. But within that, to think about it more as a gradient. And when you commission and work with others, and even too, is helped to establish that gradient. How do you think about it?
Billie Tsien:I think it's a, it's a really, really interesting question. And as you were talking, I was thinking, I don't actually know what Wendy studied before she went to architecture school. Because I studied art. And what I realized as an art major, is that it felt too open to me. That it was, you had needed to create your own problem. And then you needed to solve your own problem. And then you needed to decide whether you did a good job. And it was so subjective. And being the child of Chinese immigrants, it's like, do something practical. Do something practical. But what is great about architecture is that, you can still be creative. You can still believe in the power of art. But you're also solving somebody else's problem. And usually you get a pretty big opinion back as to whether you did a good job or not. Or whether you're close to doing a good job. And so all of that other stuff, which to me was very subjective. And in a certain way didn't make me feel useful in the world. I now can feel useful in the world. Because that's what I wanna be. I was, but at the same time, I wanna bring something of my art background to it. So, this idea of material is not simply something that you specify, you know, from looking at it on some website. Or you know, you get a three inch piece of stone and you say, oh, I'm going to use this for, you know, the walls of my building. It is very much about the physical interaction with the material itself. And if possible, to have interaction, human interaction with the people that are making. It so, It is that extra layer of texture and the connection to people who work with their hands. Which to me, humanizes a building. And takes it from being a diagram into being a place. And I think that it's so important, even as we start to look at digital fabrication, to realize that the hand needs to be in there someplace. Because we as human beings need to feel as if we're connected in one way or another to the people who make the spaces. Because otherwise, you know, we can be living in a metaverse. I mean, it doesn't, it's all an illusion. And what we really wanna do is touch things, smell things, you know, feel things. Because that connects us together because we're sharing an experience together.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:That's really nicely put. And that connection between the making of something and what it is is really nice.
Billie Tsien:Well, I think one of the things that you do in your work is that you are very involved in the making of things. And by the way, what did you study as an undergraduate?
Wendy Evans Jospeh:Oh, I came from the other side of things. I'm sorry to tell you. I was all engineering and math and science side of things. And I had a passion for drawing. And I always drew. And my father and I used to draw together. He loved art. And he and I always drew. And we would copy things out of books and magazines. And we would go back and forth withdrawing. But when it came time, he never even, he said, but art is something, just something that is your hobby. It's not a profession. And so I had, sort of, been good in math and science. And tended towards that. I didn't really know about architecture as a profession until I got to college. And I met someone who saw my drawings. It was just drawing kind of on the lawn in, uh, at Penn where I went to college. And you know, he said, what are you doing? And I said, I'm drawing. He said, well, what are you studying? I said, engineering. And he's, well, if you can draw, you should be an architect. And so he took me up to the studio and I saw that everybody making things, making models, making drawings. And I go, oh, that's it. I was done. And so that's how I came to architecture. But that feeling of making things. And again, with my dad, he had a little shop in the basement, as you would expect. And we made things all the time. And we were just constantly sawing and nailing and putting things together. He was an electrical engineer, so all of them lit up. Uh...
Billie Tsien:That's so crazy cuz my dad was an electrical engineer, too.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:Oh.
Billie Tsien:We're learning things about each other.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:Yes.
Billie Tsien:After all this time.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:I like it. All right, this podcast is not for all as long. No, I think it's all about making things. You know, and in the, it's funny because of, now with, um, somewhat post covid, a lot of my studios working remotely. And so what's happened is that the studio itself, the office has become something completely different. It's a place that you only come to if you're making a little model. It's a place that becomes more of a shop. We're sending all the samples there. I'm doing more prototyping there. And so, the whole nature of it being just a place where people are, kind of, working separately at their desk. Now it's a place where people only come when they're working together. And that's kind of nice. And again, together all about, sort of, making things.
Billie Tsien:You know, in our studio now, people are coming in. We ask a minimum of four days a week. There are several people though, who are working remotely in Santa Fe and in Colorado, Washington DC. But so much of it has to do with the immediacy of human contact. And the, sort of, unexpected results. I mean, I can say that technically, you can never translate the color of piece of fabric. You know, you hold it up to the screen. And everybody's screen has a different, sort of set of color values. And so you can't agree on anything. And, as well, when you're, you know, you have a drawing and it's on the table and there's a camera overhead, the person is trying to look at it, but they can't really figure out what's going on. So, there's that technical part. But beyond that, there is the stuff that happens that you don't expect. And I think that's where sparks happen. And so, you know, I can understand people's desire to make their lives more compact. But I think when you are doing creative work versus let's say production work. Like working on construction drawings where you can sort of zone in and be on your own. When you're doing creative work, especially in a field which is so deeply about collaboration, you need to be with the other people physically. I just think it's crucial.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:Yeah, I, I think you're right. And it's within the office, and to be honest, and not to give our clients too much credit, but it's also when we meet with them. I get a lot more about the tone of what they're saying when I'm with them. The little gesture. The little role of the eye. There's something very different about when you're together in the room. And I also feel like there's a kind of hierarchical thing about, uh, Zoom that there is. It's not democratic. And everyone doesn't have a sort of share at the table. The other part of it is the table. And actually, I have to say, even for the podcast, which of course is coming to you without site, being site specific. When we are sitting around a table, it creates this sort of sense of place and being together. I have to say, Carrie Mae Weems has a photo series that she does around the kitchen table.
Billie Tsien:Yeah.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:And it is so much meaning for me. And all the things that are done around the table. It's not just about eating. It's about sharing. It's about homework. It's about getting the knots out of your hair. It's about everything. And that communal aspect of being around the table, is something that I don't wanna give up. And that's why I think I am constantly pitching for being together. Even if we're not together on site. Being in a place together where we can kind of open up and dig in and workshop and be a little bit messy.
Billie Tsien:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:And I think being messy is something we already have talked about a bit. Because that sort of textured numbness of life. But that idea that you can get a little bit messy with things and go down a few paths that that don't necessarily have an ending.
Billie Tsien:I think that's one of the interesting thing about having had children. Is that as architects we're taught to be orderly, neat, clear. Things are laid out. Everything is a display. The artist, Tom Sachs has this crazy video called 10 Bullets. And you know it's rules that he wants people in his studio to follow. And one of them has always been knolling. Knoll as in K-N-O-L-L the furniture design company. Because everything is lined up. So when you leave your work table, you're supposed to take, you know, every tool that you have and, sort of, line it up so everything looks orderly. And when you have a kid in your family, whether it's your kid or somebody else's kid, and they do not Knoll. I mean they un-Knoll. They un-Knoll your, not only your life, but they un-Knoll your stuff. And I think it cracks us open to understand the creativity of mess. It doesn't make us like the mess so much. But it cracks us open. And I think, you know, as we get older and older, it's harder to crack open. But we need sometimes to crack a little bit.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:I like that.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I wanted to, I, I liked one, I love Carrie Mae Weems Kitchen Table series. It's one of my favorites. So I like that you brought that up. And the idea, or the metaphor of the table. And like who's at the table. Who's like, invited to the table? What, what is the table? How big is the table? But it also relates to a question I was writing earlier in relationship to, we were talking about the Library of Congress and then this question of what is available to you came up. And so like, I see those two things that's related. It was like, who's at the table and what is available to you? And I'm curious about this, like the, idea of the landscape architecture with the architecture creating, you know, a threshold or removing a threshold that creates a space that's more available to you. Or the way that you come through a carriage house or the carriage entrance as opposed to the grand staircase, making it available to a larger population. Or like, what responsibility or thought process or, you know, in this conversation of you guys got into this conversation that so directly connects to what we're talking about in relationship to our collection? Um, we're creating a series about our collection and we're looking at exclusions and omissions. And this idea that you guys both create spaces for cultural institutions, museums. And that architecture itself has a role in who feels excluded or what has been excluded. I guess the question out of that is, what is architecture's role in bringing people to the table? Or making things available?
Wendy Evans Jospeh:Yeah, I mean, we've talked a lot about space and building and occupancy and the meaning. I, I have to say, I've been working for 10 years. Which seems to be the minimum for New York City Public Project on a, a very tiny building out at Snug Harbor Cultural Center. Where we're adding to the music hall. It was the second, uh, oldest music hall in New York after Carnegie Hall. Was built only, finished only a year or two later. And it was out at Sailor Snug Harbor, which was a place for retired sailors. Beautiful big building. But it lacks any back of house spaces. So there's no loading dock. There are no dressing rooms. There is nothing. So when they have performances there, they have to kind of bring in trailers. So, the project is, all back of house. It's the loading dock, the storage room, the production rooms, the connections to the back of stage, the ADA access from front of house to back of house. It's a workhorse project. And I designed it as a glass box. And so everything is about seeing in and making all of the participants in the play, who, if any of you are in theater, know that the dressing rooms are usually in the basement. But just making a place that celebrates the makers, the actors, and the the people who are loaning in the sets. Everyone behind the scene. And makes them feel welcome. And lets other people see them. So, it's a transparent place. And so that way of respecting all sides, everyone. And making them feel a part of it, I think it, it benefits everyone who comes to the hall to see the production, to know, you know, how the sauce is made. It's actually the fun of seeing into the chef's kitchen. It's the fun of, you know, being part of that. That somebody's letting you in and you are a participant, too.
Billie Tsien:I think what you just said really sort of demonstrates that architecture has the power to make some changes in the world. I think in teaching right now, so many students feel like what they need to do is be activists. But they don't actually know how to be activists. And I say to them, you are in architecture school and you are learning the skills that will allow you to be activists. Because they're saying architecture doesn't matter anymore. And that there are other platforms for changing the world. And I say, why give up the power that you're getting? Because you can physically change the world. And so, I know that architects ascribe too much power to architecture. Like people talk about reading a building. You read a building and it tells you this. It doesn't tell most people anything. It's just like, this is a building. But it has the power to make, and something that we've continued to talk about, places. That can be containers. Not necessarily formers of life. They don't form what's going on. But they generously contain what's going on. And I think so much of change is, you know, the direct interaction of people. That is activism. But you give them a place where that can happen. And where they feel safe that that can happen. It's beautiful where it happens. Where the light comes in in a certain way. And you're not saying, this architecture is going to change your life. You're saying that what happens here, what you make happen here, how we welcome you in, this is the thing that's going to shift the world. And so I think it's a collaboration. Going back to collaboration. It's like you can make a theater, but unless the programming is amazing, it's the same old theater. It's like at Lincoln Center, they are totally changing the programming. I mean, they had, this weekend, Afro Punk Festival. And half of it was free and half of it was paid. And it was, people from our office went. India Arie was singing. She said, well, it was really great. It was mostly black women over 40. And I said, that's a little ageist. You're kind of making it because I like India Arie. But it's the programming that changes what happens. So, we make the space, we give it the capability of having events not only in the theater. But in the lobby in many places, in public places all over. And then this amazing woman named Shanta Thake programs it. And it changes. So, it's the container and it's the people. And that's how we make difference. But we have the ability to make the container. So, we can't throw that away. That is our power.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I mean, there's so much about what you guys are talking about that I, so a little secret about me. I used to wanna be an architect. Then I'm a human artist. So there's, yeah, there's a reverse of what happened with you, Billie. But it was, I, I was not great at engineering and math. My parents are both engineers. And they were like, hmm, maybe not. But there's something, and I think I responded to as a kid. And I still respond to, and I think about in my work as an artist, is like how we feel in a space. And so, what you're talking about, about making the back of house transparent. Or Billie, what you're talking about of like architecture having a role in activism, is something I think I've felt and understood. Of like, just the example of like, the room for those listening, we're in a room where there's, uh, pocket doors that close off a window because of the former owner was afraid. And it communicates fear to close yourself off. And so what does it mean to make something transparent? Or to make something feel fragile or light? And what does it mean to carry through a historical architectural space or feeling that has implications of a history that has its own complications and ugly history. So, there's like, there are these like moments that I think are really interesting. And the idea that people dismiss it, I think is more of the like, people aren't necessarily consciously thinking about how they feel. But like we've closed ourself off from windows right now. That changes the feeling of the room. This is like a little bit of a, a left turn, but you talked about how you look at things critically. And I think anybody who's gone through any kind of creative education or program where things are critiqued and you have to endure critique, you kind of come out of the world being critical. Not in a bad way, but just critical and and thoughtful. So, I'm curious, when you look at art, what do you like? What are the things that pass your critique?
Wendy Evans Jospeh:Uh, we started, uh, this conversation talking about our art crawls. And now we're thinking about what kind of art we like and what it is that drives us to different things. One thing we do when we do the art call is sometimes we go into the room, and there might be. I was thinking of a Thomas Nozkowski show that we saw at one point, and there must have been 30 drawings around the room. They were all the same format. They were all done around the same time. And we walked around. And then everyone had to choose, which is your favorite one and why. And, you know, thinking about what it is, even with totally abstract art in, and even though those were almost like a similar color palette. But we were all drawn specifically to different things. And thinking about what it was about us that drew us to those.
Billie Tsien:Yeah, that I remember that time. And I always go into a gallery and sometimes, you know, it doesn't move me. But there's usually often something in, I always think of it as the thing I would steal. That I, what would I steal? I would steal, well, nothing in this room. I wouldn't steal anything in this room. And it changes a lot. I mean, I think it's very hard to, sort of, say specifically, I think, you know, I'm always drawn to powerful color. I'm often drawn to figures. I often look for something that feels, in a way, simple. But has other complexity behind it. But those are also abstract. So it would be hard to say, you know, I like, uh, American realism from the sixties based in California. I mean, I, I, I can't. It's inevitable.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:Part of it is that I think we're both looking for too is, is a sense of narrative.
Billie Tsien:Yeah.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:Out of the work. And sometimes you get that from the work itself. And sometimes you feel that the artists themselves plays a very deep role in it. I'm thinking about, um, the Nick Cave show that's up now at the Guggenheim. And there was enough of it there where you start to, sort of, understand an artist and their, as a whole in their, their evolution. What they're thinking about.
Billie Tsien:Mm-hmm.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:What has meaning to them. And how they've depicted it in different ways along the way. And what's nice about it is, what drew me into it is, you could see places that were more searching moments and others that were more resolved. Where it's sort of like, this comes together now. This is a place that, you know, I'm making something. And it, and it's bringing together the physical, the sound, the emotional context. Other places that have very quiet and reflect a different part of what they were trying to do. So again, this sort of, ability to sort of, dive in and see something. But I have to say that, as much as I wanna only stop there, there is a sort of visceral, ocular centric, or something emotional quality, uh, that draws me to certain materials, certain pallets, certain ways that people think. The way they collage together things that draw me on a personal level, as well. And I'm not afraid of that. I'm not afraid to walk in and say, this show I know is, has a lot of political meaning. Has a lot of social meaning. But I'm just looking at this and saying, wow, this is really beautiful.
Billie Tsien:Mm-hmm.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:That's okay too.
Billie Tsien:I love the fact that you said it has a kind of narrative to it. Because I think that that's what I'm looking for as well. And the narrative may only be my narrative. That I'm somehow imposing on what I see. But I need to feel in some way that I'm being told something. Not that I'm being shown something.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I like that as an idea. Thank you guys for joining us. I have one last question for both of you. Um, we're here under the context and the, the collective of the National Academy of Design. You're both inducted architects of the National Academy of Design. Wendy, you are our current President of the Membership of the National Academy of Design. My question is what that means to you? What does it mean to be a part of this almost 200 year old institution? This collective of artists and architects? And what are your, your thoughts on being Academicians?
Wendy Evans Jospeh:I think one thing we both share is that we are believers in our community in different ways. And whereas a lot of architects don't necessarily participate in the leadership of the community and what that means and why we come together. You and I spend a lot of time with the Architectural League of New York, for example, and the National Academy Arts and Letters, you spend time as a leader. But the meaning of these organizations and the lives of their members has changed over time.
Billie Tsien:I like being part of an organization that has a long history and feel as if I'm changing that history. That's how I can feel useful to an organization. If I feel that I can be a part of changing and shaping a new history. So, it's both the connection of being old and having that, sort of, presence as a kind of standing institution. But then how can you shift, how can you move that ocean liner so that, you know, it travels different waters?
Wendy Evans Jospeh:When I became a member of the Academy, I was really excited about it and came on board and it was extremely nice. And I started coming to a couple of events and, and got together with a few other architect friends. And we realized that there were some problems here. And that the reason that the Academy had been formed back in the eighteen hundreds, was very different than the purpose that it would serve today. Now, one purpose has stayed the same. Which is to recognize excellence within fields of art and design. Architecture, now, landscape and graphic design. All the design disciplines. But beyond that, what is the purpose? Uh, beyond just collecting and storing art, what else can we do? And it became clear to me that the thing to do was to maintain the existence of the organization over time. And to rethink our programming. And to rethink what we did to better represent these disciplines today. And that involved what wound up being the selling of our premises. Which allowed us to create an endowment. Which allows us to have programming. And the programming is the key.
Billie Tsien:Yeah.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:And that's what what we're doing right now. It is in tandem also with opening the membership more broadly. And that will happen over time. Certainly is happening very strongly now. And I'm pushing as hard as I can to bring in members that represent our community of architecture and, and the arts more broadly. But coupling that always with what we're saying about these disciplines. How we're involving the community. How we're encouraging people to make a difference today.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Thank you guys both for joining. Uh, really appreciate the time. I know you're both very busy. So, it's really great to have this moment with you both. Billie, we'll probably follow up with you sometime in the near future about you picking somebody as we continue the chain. So maybe think about it. But thank you so much.
Billie Tsien:Great.
Wendy Evans Jospeh:Great. Well thanks.
Anjelic Owens:Wow. What a episode, right?
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Such a good episode.
Anjelic Owens:It was a breath of fresh air. Cuz I really, I think, hearing their conversation, it really reiterated how closely knit like, architecture and art truly are.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I mean, truly in the fact that they, not only started with talking about art and their friendship kind of revolves around these like conversations where they go see, you know, walk around Chelsea and see art and, you know, have critical conversations. But they actually didn't even spend that much time talking about the nitty gritty of....
Anjelic Owens:Yeah.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:...their industry of architecture. Which I thought was really interesting. That's so much about like ideas and...
Anjelic Owens:Mm-hmm.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:...really like, the conversations that we hear artists have.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Thinking about the like, larger influences and ideas and like, effects of what they do.
Anjelic Owens:A hundred percent. And I think that's honestly really refreshing and important, just knowing that everything informs the work. And like, not really feeling like, oh, if you're not in the studio doing A, B, C, D, like, you're not an artist. And it's like, no, actually like, you going for that walk and like smelling that tulip or getting tacos with a friend, you know, it's all relevant and important to how you engage with your practice.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah, I mean that this idea, they focus out on experiences. And like the experience of people in their spaces. But their own experiences informing what they're doing.
Anjelic Owens:Billie, she talked about how, especially doing creative work, there's that spark that happens when you're in the office.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Mm-hmm.
Anjelic Owens:And like now, because of remote work, the times that you plan to be in the office is to collaborate. Is to like, exchange and be together at the table. So...
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah. I love learning that Billie started out in art school.
Anjelic Owens:Yes, honestly.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And also like, it made sense with the way that she talked about some things. Like I think you mentioned off mic that she, she's poetic. And there was this moment where it was like, oh, this, I feel that through line of connection. I think her and Wendy had this natural rapport and relationship that seems to be connected through that way of talking. And through that way of thinking. Which is really interesting.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah. I feel like I could definitely see that line of thought. And Wendy spoke about Billie, how she incorporates that second layer to her work. And how that, those like, slight changes really can impact the overall experience in the space.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Right. Speaking about textures, the, the textures, like literal material textures, and needing to see things in person.
Anjelic Owens:Yes.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I also really loved, and they both had examples of this in their work, but talking about how architecture can be a part of this conversation that we're already having in other ways. In the National Academy, particularly in relationship to our collection. But this idea of exclusions and omissions and what it feels like to be excluded and creating inclusive museum experiences.
Anjelic Owens:Mm-hmm.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And architecture's role in that. And so I thought it was really interesting to hear Billie talk about Lincoln Center and Wendy talk about the back of house, of the theater space.
Anjelic Owens:Mm-hmm.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And sort of making visible this invisible labor.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah. And I liked how Billie was talking about, even just the importance of how activism ties into architecture. And understanding that it's just like, we all have a role to play. And like, community building. And it's like the way that they're building the back of house and how it's of glass and you're visually seeing these things. Like, the way that you can be in the Lincoln Center and you don't have to spend any money. You can just kind of be there and vibe out. Like, I think they are both creating a sense of place that's welcoming and inviting for others to, to belong, you know?
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah. And of course we always end our conversations with the National Academy, bringing it back to the context.
Anjelic Owens:Yes.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:This one in particular, we're actually talking to the President of the Membership. She's invested in a different way.
Anjelic Owens:Yes.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And I really loved both of their responses. And I think there's an awareness of what this is. The history of it. The trajectory of it. And how being a part of it in a contemporary context can influence its next steps. And like, this awareness of like, where we've been and like, having an influence over where we're going.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah. It's just always refreshing when the membership is like in tune with the labor that goes into this change. And it's nice to know that we really all are in this together. And understanding that it's gonna take time and a lot of effort. So, it was really nice to hear their, their perspective on that.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah, it's a multi century project, you know?
Anjelic Owens:Yes. Emphasis.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:That's a big, that's a big effort. But I, I love learning about these Academicians and their practices. And understanding how they see themselves as part of this is always rewarding.
Anjelic Owens:Yes, definitely agree.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:What an incredible episode.
Anjelic Owens:Yes. Stay tuned for the final episode with artists Elena Sisto and Carroll Dunham.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Thanks so much for joining us. And we'll see you next time.
Anjelic Owens:Bye. This conversation was recorded on March 1st, 2023. Exquisite Corpse is written and produced by Adrienne Elise Tarver and Anjelic Owens. And co-produced, mixed and edited by Mike Clemow and Wade Strange at SeeThruSound.
