Exquisite Corpse: Contemporary Conversations

Roberto Juarez NA + Jimmy Wright NA

• Roberto Juarez, Jimmy Wright • Season 4 • Episode 1

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The National Academy of Design’s podcast Exquisite Corpse: Contemporary Conversations launches its fourth season with an episode featuring painters and dear longtime friends Roberto Juarez and Jimmy Wright. Starting with Roberto’s time capsule of work from the 1980s, their conversation ebbs and flows through experiences that color their art practices. From moving to New York in the 1970/80s, to discovering their visual languages, they share a unique journey to making art careers in New York City. Their shared queer community is a connective tissue, providing the foundation for creative expansion, friendship, housing, and work. Both share a warm gratitude for the past and resounding positivity for the future of their art practices and the art world at large. 

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Anjelic Owens:

Hey, Adrianne elise Tarver.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Hi, Angelique Owens. It's good to see you in person.

Anjelic Owens:

IRL.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

So today we're here recording episode one, season four.

Anjelic Owens:

Mm-hmm.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Of the Exquisite Corpse Podcast.

Anjelic Owens:

Super pumped. Can't wait. We need a handshake.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Yeah. Super handshake.

Anjelic Owens:

We, yeah, we need a handshake. It'll come. Okay. It'll come to us.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

I'm down. This is a series of conversations between artists and architects who've been elected by their peers to the National Academy of Design for their extraordinary contributions to art and culture in America. These are the National Academicians. And they are at the core of the oldest artist run organization in the United States. This is Exquisite Corpse. This is the first episode of Season four. And we're excited to have two artists and old friends, Roberto Juarez and Jimmy Wright. But first, as always, our Historical Acknowledgement.

Sophia Neitsch:

Hi, my name is Sophia Neitsch. And I'm the National Academician Affairs Manager at the National Academy of Design. The National Academy Design was initiated by artists and architects to fill a void in the American artistic landscape of the 19th century. But we recognize our history has excluded many communities and cultures whose lineages and practices must be included in this country's art historical canon. Indigenous peoples, people of color, queer and non-binary individuals, and people with disabilities. We are committed to a process of dismantling the ongoing legacies of settler colonialism and white supremacy. We're excited to move forward and have conversations that reflect the important questions and issues of today. We are National Academy of Design and you are listening to Exquisite Corpse.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Hey Anjelic.

Anjelic Owens:

Hey Adrianne. What's up girl?

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Uh, not a lot except for the new year.

Anjelic Owens:

Yes, we're in a new year. New season. Like new all around.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Happy New Year.

Anjelic Owens:

Oh, thank you.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

What do you think our, uh, podcast resolution should be?

Anjelic Owens:

I think our podcast resolution should be, dang, actually, I'm not sure. Cuz I was gonna say just like, more diversity, more women, more, but I don't know if that's like an ad, inadequate... I guess more live recordings.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Yeah, more in-person...

Anjelic Owens:

yes.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

...things. In-person events related to the podcast. In-person recordings.

Anjelic Owens:

Yeah.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Let's bring back in person as a thing in 2023.

Anjelic Owens:

Agreed, agreed. Knock on wood, sans all illnesses and things.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

So, we're in a new season. We have some pretty interesting guests on the docket. Hoping to solidify a few more things. But this is gonna be an interesting beginning to 2023 for the podcast, don't you think?

Anjelic Owens:

Yeah. I'm actually pretty excited. Uh, and it's nice that it's actually, each season it gets easier and easier to get folks on the podcast. So, I'm pumped.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Yeah, it's exciting to have people wanna come back. So, we're gonna have a little bit of that this season. But what's I think exciting about this episode, our first episode, is that we've been trying to get Roberto Juarez on the podcast for over a year now probably. Uh, for a while.

Anjelic Owens:

Yeah.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

He's been super pumped to do it. It's just been a journey. So, we're finally at this point. And he wanted to talk to Jimmy Wright.

Anjelic Owens:

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

They're both painters.

Anjelic Owens:

Both painters, both buddies.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

They've been buddies for a long time.

Anjelic Owens:

Mm-hmm.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

What's interesting too is, we've developed our own relationship with Roberto over the past year. Because, you know, we've been doing programs for, you know, a year, year and a half, two years, I guess, kind of since I've been here. And Roberto's been in programs early on.

Anjelic Owens:

Yeah. Honestly, when I first started we had the Out of Many series. And he was a part of that. And...

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

He was just so warm and welcoming and like immediately felt like he's your friend.

Anjelic Owens:

A hundred percent. I, that was definitely one of my favorites. Yeah.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

And he, even at one point, I guess a few months ago now, he invited, uh, me to his studio. He's invited a few staff to a studio now. Um.

Anjelic Owens:

Oh, nice.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

And it's just so nice because like, he was really like, he's going through this old work from the eighties. And just to kind of see like what, you know, I've seen some of the recent work. Especially doing that, um, Out of Many series. But then to see some of the older work and what he was doing, you know, at the same time his contemporaries like Jean-Michel Basquiat.

Anjelic Owens:

Yes.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

And, you know, all of these really. Incredible people that he has just been a contemporary of over the years.

Anjelic Owens:

Yeah. Honestly. Yeah. When he shared that story, I was really taken aback. Which was again, really, really amazing.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

And he loves to share. I mean, that's what I, you know, learned in the studio visit. He's a sharer. He's a, you know, he builds community by just like sharing things with people. Time and space and conversation.

Anjelic Owens:

Yeah. Honestly, and if anything, what was really nice about working with Roberto is that he's been a part of a lot of our firsts.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

100 percent.

Anjelic Owens:

Which was really nice.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

And it's inter, you know, this is part of his personality. It's like, by request, he's like, I wanna be in person. So, we keep, you know, pushing in this virtual space that we've been held to for years now.

Anjelic Owens:

Mm-hmm.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

He's been pushing that boundary, like, can we do this in person? And we keep rising to the occasion. Saying, yes, we can, Roberto.

Anjelic Owens:

Yes. I love that. He's pushing us to new heights, honestly.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

So, this episode is exciting. Not just because it's the first episode of the new season, of 2023. But it's our first in-person recording.

Anjelic Owens:

Yes.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

So, we are going to be joined live in our makeshift recording studio with Roberto Juarez and Jimmy Wright sitting right in front of us. And unique is that an Anjelic and I are in the same room.

Anjelic Owens:

In the same room.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Across the table, trying to look deeply into her eyes.

Anjelic Owens:

Yes, definitely. All of that. All of that.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

So, it's gonna be fun. I mean, it's also might listen, sound. Listen, it might sound a little different for you audience. Because we're not, you know, in separate spaces, on a screen with, you know, microphones that are only picking up what's in our own space. But we're, we're in the same room. We're, you know, looking at each other. We're feet away from each other. So, it should be interesting. Not just for the experience, but also for for the listening experience.

Anjelic Owens:

Yes. A more intimate feel. For sure.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Yeah. Thank you too for joining us in person. This is really exciting for us to all be in the same room. So thanks for making your way here. Roberto. I'm gonna start with you. Because we've been in conversation for months now. Trying to figure out how to get you on the podcast and who you wanted to speak with. And I'm so excited to finally be sitting here with you. And you have invited Jimmy Wright to be in conversation with you. So can you just tell us a little bit about why you wanted to speak with Jimmy Wright on the podcast?

Roberto Juarez:

Yes, it's uh, a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me. And Jimmy Wright and myself go way back to my student days at Southern Illinois University. Where he was my teacher in etching and painting and drawing. And it changed my life, meeting Jimmy. And to still know him and see him, him develop as an artist in New York and be my neighbor in New York City, is just a continuity that is very rare and special for me. And so I thought it would be perfect for this conversation.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

And Jimmy, you guys were about to, maybe before we started, talk a little bit about when you first met. Can you tell me a little bit about what it was like to be asked to be on the podcas? Or what your thought is about, uh, continuing a conversation that seems to be a continuation of a long relationship.

Jimmy Wright:

I moved to New York in 1974. Leaving an academic career path to live and be an artist in New York and to be comfortable being who I am, which is a queer person. And so, to have Roberto here today, sort of, connects that thread of continuity in my life here in New York. And there were other young gay artists at the same time. Who unfortunately have all died of AIDS during the 1980s and early nineties. So we have many ghosts with us here today whose work still lives on. And Roberto and I are still practicing artists. Our work will continue as long as we're around, too. So, it's very comfortable to be here with Roberto. And, sort of, reflect upon our similar but not exactly same journeys as artists in New York City. Well, Roberto, you, you recently uncovered a trove of drawings that were created in the early eighties? Like 1984. I don't know if they're all from 1984.

Roberto Juarez:

Well, from 79 to 87.

Jimmy Wright:

So that's kind of, uh, 79 to 87 is a period when we were both financially struggling. Uh, finding a place to work in New York was a totally different experience than it is now. We both ended up in the Bowery Houston Street area. We ended up in the same neighborhood. How did it feel to find that whole case? It's what, a hundred drawings?

Roberto Juarez:

It's about 65 drawings. But they're more than drawings. They're large works on paper. 58 by 38. Or 59 inches by 44 inches. So large pieces of very good paper that were put away in a crate. And during Covid I started cleaning out my closets and discovered that this crate was starting to have problems. That, uh, I could see that the paper was folding. And so I uncrated this big group of works on paper. And cleaned them up. I mean, basically, you know, made sure they were flattened. And there was nothing sticking to them. And in the process of taking care of them, I observed this whole chapter of my work that has just been preserved. And so, I thought it was a thing to do to show them to people.

Jimmy Wright:

In that period, you were also making extremely large paintings. Like nine foot high.

Roberto Juarez:

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Wright:

Big paintings that continue the imagery that are prominent in this body of work. And I remember, in particular, a large figure between two palm trees that was exhibited at a Annina Nosei Gallery in Soho in the, uh, mid eighties, I think.

Roberto Juarez:

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Wright:

What I found so wonderful was each one of these works is a complete work in itself. They're scaled down. But they're compared to what the paintings you were making at that time. But they are, as you said, they're more paintings than drawings. In that they have a complete presence when viewed. It's a really strong group of work. Looking back on that specific body of work, what struck you as some of the dominant images that you were working with? Because they all have an imagery to them. Objects, people.

Roberto Juarez:

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Wright:

Color is almost like an object.

Roberto Juarez:

I think the word image is important in your question because there are a lot of images. There's a lot of issues that I was dealing with as a young artist. A young person of color artists in New York which. At that time was rare. I, I know there were artists but, that were being represented at major galleries. It wasn't happening. There were like three or four. So I thought it was important that I represent who I was. Who my, my family was. What I was as a queer man. And also just the, the sensitivity of the culture that I came from. Which is different. I mean, I went to art school, like all the other artists that were in galleries. But I, I made a point to even in, in film school, which is what I studied at the Art Institute in San Francisco. Because I didn't think they would understand my paintings. My paintings were being thrown around and not appreciated. So, I thought I should learn a skill. And so I started studying filmmaking as a way to possibly get a job when I got outta school. So, there's this kind of undercurrent of painting that had to do with myself. And presented in New York, it was an opportunity to just say who I was. And some of the imagery as you're talking about, the painting I think you're referring to was called Earth Mother. And Earth mother was this gigantic woman. And very strong, almost muscular. And she was brown. And she had a little child. A barefoot child at her leg. And it was kind of an exaggeration. Or almost a cliche of what is expected of a person of color. But I thought it was hard not to point that there is this whole culture that's not being represented.

Jimmy Wright:

I don't know if, uh, I'm sure you remember this. We went to a major exhibition at the Metropolitan of Mexican Cultural Art. And I can't remember whether we were looking at Aztec or Mayan. I can't remember the specific period. But we were with the realist sculptor, Robert Graham, who's Mexican...

Roberto Juarez:

mm-hmm.

Jimmy Wright:

...heritage.

Roberto Juarez:

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Wright:

Mexican American. And do you recall, there was an altar sculpture that was very low on the floor? Highly deep relief carving. And Robert asked the curator if that piece were a sacrificial altar. Do you remember that?

Roberto Juarez:

I don't.

Jimmy Wright:

Well, what was interesting was...

Roberto Juarez:

it's good story.

Jimmy Wright:

That information was not on the exhibition label. And Robert turned to us, sort of, saying, that's the most important information about the piece. And they've left it out. Um, so immediately you got the sense that we were looking at objects that were divorced from their cultural context. And in a sense it was an eraser of Cultural Identity. How did you end up uptown in a gallery when all our mutual friends were downtown at say, fun gallery?

Roberto Juarez:

It's uh, it's amazing, actually. Because when I came to New York, I couldn't find any work. I was close to taking a job selling nuts on the corner of the street. Uh, I mean, that was the only thing that was offered to me. That was a possibility for work. And then a very good friend, colleague, Jed Garrett, who was showing at the Robert Miller Gallery up on 57th and fifth, said, well, maybe I can get you a job at the gallery as a gallery hand. And so that was the entry into that level of gallery where I was the gallery hand. Literally the first job I had was to hang a, a Robert Zakanitch painting at, uh, Barbara Walter's apartment on Park Avenue. And, you know, there's this kid from Illinois in Barbara Walter's apartment hanging a painting. Not knowing how to hang a painting. But pretending I did. And seeing a Robert Zakanitch for the first time. The excitement of that kind of imagery and the, the looseness of paint. So, I was learning that first year in New York by just looking at art and handling art. And that job led to Robert and John Cheim offering me to be part of a summer show.

Jimmy Wright:

And what year was that, do you recall?

Roberto Juarez:

1980. And then 81 again, Robert Graham had an exhibition of his sculptures planned. But the bronze casting cracked. So he couldn't show his sculpture. And because Robert Graham couldn't do it, Robert Miller said, could you be ready in three months with some new paintings? And I said, sure. And Ellen Stewart, La Mama offered me a free space to paint downtown on First Street.

Jimmy Wright:

In a garage.

Roberto Juarez:

A garage, a big old garage. The Lucky Star Garage. And I made all these gigantic paintings without having money actually to pay for rent or heat. We didn't have any heat. But yeah, that's how I started. And that's how I got to show at 57th and fifth at Robert Miller Gallery.

Jimmy Wright:

Uh, and that was right when the German neo expressionists, like Baselitz, were being shopped around and offered to New York galleries. It was just right on the cusp of neo expressionism. And you arrived. And one of the first things I thought looking at this group of drawings from the eighties and early nineties, was how there were similarities to European neo-expressionism. But there was something else going on in your work that was very distinctive from these European white artists. Can you focus a little bit on what you think that might be? What, what was being communicated in this very early work from the eighties?

Roberto Juarez:

I think, um, Annina Nosei, who was an art dealer then, who actually discovered Jean-Michel Basquiat, said it for me in an interview she did for us where she said, I went to PS one, NuWave New York, the exhibition that Diego Cortez had organized. And of all the hundreds of downtown artists, there were two that I noticed. And it was Jean-Michel Basquiat Basquiat and Roberto Jaurez. And the reason Roberto Juarez and Jean-Michel are interesting is, this sense of the Caribbean. The Caribbean life. Caribbean color. Life, and kind of excitement, that is New York. That's what she saw as New York. And she connected me with this kind of vibe that is the population of New York. A good portion of New York is Puerto Rican. But was not being represented. So she felt it important to pull us out of that group.

Jimmy Wright:

Is that where you met Basquiat? Or had you met him before?

Roberto Juarez:

I met him through Annina. She invited me to go to his studio when it was in the basement of her gallery, before his first one-man show, to look at the paintings. And it was incredible. It was, it was so exciting to see this work. And he was painting over paintings. But every layer of the pictures that were being put together were just so exciting for me as a young artist to see. And also he invited me to his studio. And in his studio, he asked to exchange paintings. And he gave me a painting. And I gave him a painting. And there were drawings all over the floor that he was walking on. And he had an assistant that would carry his painting out and hold it in the back room for me to choose one. So it was, you know, it was a very kind of crystal in time in New York City. Where things like that would happen. And it was part of a larger community. So, it was a Annina who introduced us. But we were friendly. We weren't friend friends.

Jimmy Wright:

Well, just serendipity. When I moved to New York in 1974 and I took an apartment in Boerum Hill, I lived across the street from Jean-Michel and his family. So, in the late seventies, after Jean-Michel had run away from home and moved to Manhattan, I met an opening in soho and Jean-Michel walks up to me and goes, hey, aren't you that artist that lives across the street? So, from then on, we always said hello. We always exchanged a few words. But he associated me as knowing his father. Well, my landlord was a friend of his father's. I was just a tenant other than saying hello to people on the block, I didn't really know him. But I too was in that basement studio at Annina's gallery. And that Caribbean connection, I think is really intensely important. Because when I was looking at these drawings, the imagery dissolves in color. But it never completely dissolves. But color really dominates all of these drawings. And it's not a European sensibility of color. It's, I'm gonna say in a European painting sense, almost claustrophobic. It's overwhelming. And I immediately thought of, this is the beat. This is the percussion. It's dominant. One moves with the color, like one moves with a percussion beat. So, it's very interesting. One of my favorite groups of works during this period are of objects. Like the kitchen blender. Or a cracked cup that one's drinking coffee out of in a artist's studio. So, there's a whole, they could be divided up, I think, into groups in terms of subject. Material, objects from western culture, is sort of one, one aspect.

Roberto Juarez:

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Wright:

And I remember your first apartment. Which was on Houston above Yonah Schimmel. And I think I gave you a blender. It was like, oh, here's a, here's a plate, a knife, and a fork for your new apartment. I mean, you really moved to New York with nothing.

Roberto Juarez:

$200.

Jimmy Wright:

$200.

Roberto Juarez:

Yes.

Jimmy Wright:

And a tight group of gay friends all from San Francisco. Who were some of those artists friends?

Roberto Juarez:

There was Jed Garrett, as I mentioned. Dana Garrett, a painter. Arch Connelly, painter, sculptor, persona. Who else?

Jimmy Wright:

From San Francisco? I think that's the core group.

Roberto Juarez:

That was us.

Jimmy Wright:

And we're all on the Lower East Side. And then that group grew to include like, daniel Mahoney.

Roberto Juarez:

Mm-hmm. Daniel Mahoney was my assistant. And a a, a wonderful young artist who was very close to me. But before we get off the subject of things in my paintings...

Jimmy Wright:

Yeah.

Roberto Juarez:

...because you mentioned something. And I think there's a story there. In the first show at Robert Miller, the main painting when you entered the gallery space was Broken Cup.

Jimmy Wright:

Ah.

Roberto Juarez:

And Broken Cup was not just a broken cup because I couldn't afford a better cup cuz I was such a poor artist. It was a song my mother would sing to me as a child. And it was about a man who had a drinking problem. And he would say, pour me another one. And he would drink it. And they'd say, oh, you know, you drank it. He says, oh no, the cup is broken. It's just falling out. And so that was, the song was about this dealing with alcoholism with making excuses. And so there was a kind of romantic myth about how it was painted. It's a very pretty painting. And it's not a particularly happy story. But that kind of juxtaposition between happy and sad, I think are part of the subject, too. Along with the things that are in it.

Jimmy Wright:

Well, it's interesting. You call it a pretty painting. Because it's about eight foot square.

Roberto Juarez:

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Wright:

It's not at all a pretty painting. It's a, it's a presence. The cup is like an animated object. It's pretty, in a very contemporary art sense. It's not pretty in any kind of sentimental sense. And I think this is important aspect of this body of work. It's a loud voice in the room. And to be comfortable in a collection, it needs to be with very strong work. Otherwise it just wipes everything out. And that was one of the more interesting aspects of your showing, right off the bat, at Robert Miller. Where he was starting to develop relationships with a whole group of older, very strong women artists. Were there any particular artists, women artists, at that time that you developed relationships that were important to you?

Roberto Juarez:

I don't know if a personal relationship was developed with this artist. But I think I had a personal relationship with the paintings. And that's Lee Krasner. I mean, seeing the Lee Krasner's for the first time at Robert Miller, was game changing. The way she dealt with color. The approach of directness. The hap stance, kind of, accidents with, kind of, charming resolution to those accidents. It's an amazing body of work that she left for us. And through Robert Miller, I got to enjoy that very early on. And I did meet her. And we did have lunches in the Hamptons together. But she never became my friend. I think she laughed at me a little bit. Because I was asked to make guacamole for them because I'm Mexican. And I know how to make guacamole. And I had never made guacamole in my life. And so, I went to this Hampton kitchen with the daughter Scarlet, Sarah Scarlet, and we said, okay, how do you make guacamole? And she's like, take the avocados and you put 'em in the blender. And you know, you put onions in the, and it's absolutely not what you're supposed to do. And so it became this liquid, kind of, guacamole that we pulled out and serve Lee Krasner. And I remember her face. She put the corn chip in and it like, ugh, what kind of guacamole is this? It's like, but that's, I mean, as personal as I got with her. But the paintings, I did get a very personal relationship with. I, I love her work very much.

Jimmy Wright:

Well, that's interesting. Because later on I was gonna talk about collage element. Which appears later in your work. But what I remember about the first few shows of Lee Krasner paintings that Miller, she took all the drawings she made in charcoal in like figure classes with Hans Hoffman, in Provincetown, and cut them up. And they became collage elements, dominant collage elements in a whole series of paintings that she did. And I always thought that was fascinating. To take Hoffman's force for his teaching method. A signature drawing style, and mythology. And as a mature artist, she turned it totally into something that was her own. But that they were so crafted, you know, impeccably and beautifully. And as you developed as an artist, collage has become a major element. Collage of your own work. Not necessarily collage of images you've collected elsewhere, has become a very important part of your studio process.

Roberto Juarez:

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Wright:

But I was thinking of Louise Bourgeois. Only because, I was at least at two dinners where Louise was there. And the dinners were in honor of you. And her humor, her good humor, in the the moment. And it was all about you. And the moment. It was just that you were surrounded, you were in a gallery that eventually became dominated by women who we think of as being legends. Who had lived their whole careers in neglect, in a sense. It was a late recognition. So, I thought it, I found it interesting looking at this older work that your voice is equally strong. And equally remove from the mainstream in a very interesting way. And I think, again, to go back to this Caribbean connection. For someone who came from the Midwest, you're a very New York artist from the very beginning. Because New York is a melting pot. And all these women represented, a kind of, um, well, the New York School. Were not the Midwestern school. But it's just that there's so many multiple voices in New York. And yours and Basquiat were two very strong voices that were different from what we were hearing in the 1980s.

Roberto Juarez:

I think your observation about this gallery, the, the group of artists that John and Bob gathered, was amazing. I mean, it was as amazing as what was happening downtown in New York in a different way. I mean, another artist that we haven't mentioned but was very strongly influencing me just by seeing this work and being able to go to her studio, was Joan Mitchell. Joan Mitchell's paintings were out of fashion because she was not the man of abstract expressionism. She was the woman. And she had moved to Paris. And she created this whole world of her own. Well, I happened to be at Paris in one of her openings. And she invited me to her house. And she made me dinner and she paid for the train ticket. And she fried some liver up. And, and we talked. And I got to see how she painted. And, and it was so direct. It was so beautiful. Basically it was, you know, coffee cans with brushes in 'em and turpentine. She said the turpentine helped keep it flat. And she was kind of disappointed that I wasn't painting an oil. And I, I couldn't. I mean, I physically couldn't handle the fumes from oil and, and turpentine. And I tried, I tried many times. I tried wearing gas masks. I tried long brushes. I mean, many things. But it just wasn't happening. But she thought that was the real painting. But that she would teach me how to paint, she said. But then she passed away.

Jimmy Wright:

Right.

Roberto Juarez:

But you know, I mean, that was a great stable to grow up in. And in a way, I grew up in public by showing every two years at Robert Miller and absorbing all this great art around me. Not just uptown, but downtown, too.

Jimmy Wright:

It's a pretty unique situation you kind of fell into. Uh, let's talk about our shared gay community. Um, when I was in Southern Illinois and I was a new faculty member, I became the faculty sponsor of the Gay Lib Group. And I had been as a grad student at Southern Illinois, one of the founding members. This is, I think it was founded in 1969. You moved to San Francisco in what year?

Roberto Juarez:

70.

Jimmy Wright:

71

Roberto Juarez:

72.

Jimmy Wright:

2 72. And did you start directly at the San Francisco Art Institute?

Roberto Juarez:

No. No. When I arrived, again, to San Francisco with, you know, nothing, basically. And having to find my way, I took little odd jobs. My first odd job was at a gay magazine doing illustrations of like boys in underwear. And they were too stylized. I mean, I lasted a week. And the guy said, make it sexier. And I wouldn't make it, you know, weirder. And he would say, no, try again. And it was like, but um, it was a job. And in that, trying to find a job, I met Dana Garrett. Who actually was one of the big changes of my life as an artist. Because he was a whole family of art and artists and appreciation of art. His family lived in Woodside. And they would come to our, our little apartment and, you know, present us with all these opportunities to look at art and think about art in a way that I'd never had. So, that was the beginning of that. And it was very gay. I mean, that was part of what I learned at Southern Illinois with Jimmy Wright. He was the sponsor of Gay Liberation Club. And I was just coming out. And what a wonderful thing to find each other. Because I met Arch Connolly there. And you know, it was a whole group of artists. And they were living to the fullest. Archie would wear dresses to his ceramic classes. And he was a big deal. He was very popular and charismatic. I mean, he really was a very special person. And I kind of fell in love with him. So, from that point in this new kind of gay milieu for me as an artist and student at Southern Illinois, I moved to San Francisco following Archie Connolly, actually. I think, in terms of subject, it was always part of my work. I didn't make it, you know, like the subject. But I always thought that part of my whole persona was being true to myself. Which I was not able to do in Northern Illinois. And in Southern Illinois. And then by then, San Francisco. And eventually UCLA in Los Angeles. I had developed myself as an artist who was gay and proud.

Jimmy Wright:

Well...

Roberto Juarez:

thanks to you.

Jimmy Wright:

Arch in California, in Haight-Ashbury. I had an apartment that was the ranch.

Roberto Juarez:

I remember the ranch.

Jimmy Wright:

And Arch was, uh, many of his friends were performative. I don't know if you attended? Did you go to Performances by The Angels of Light? And...

Roberto Juarez:

My first night in San Francisco, I went to an Angels of Light New Year's Eve party where Divine was on the stage. And Dolores, my friend, who I ended up living with was a very good friend at Divine's. And she was on the stage. And they, they had a, a offshoot of the Angels of Life. There was called Warp Floors. And Warp Floors did a lot of productions. And because of that, I was kind of always there. People were always singing and dressing up and designing around me. But I was never in any productions. But I did videotape. And also, before videotape, I filmed. And I made films of Archie and some of the other performers. Janice Dekeitus and, um, who are some of the other characters? I mean, there was...

Jimmy Wright:

mink Stole.

Roberto Juarez:

Mink Stole was not somebody I was interfacing with. But I knew of her. John Waters, of course. And John Water's makeup artist was part of this group. And there were, just, it was a whole theatrical idea of art. Art was not just something on the wall. It was something you made as a performance. And there were very social political subjects. It wasn't just, you know, oh, look how glamorous I am. It was about the times,

Jimmy Wright:

Well, well, sorry to bounce back and forth....

Roberto Juarez:

That's right.

Jimmy Wright:

...between the west coast and the East coast. But a major, a major patron and friend was Ellen Stewart, La MaMa.

Roberto Juarez:

Absolutely.

Jimmy Wright:

How did that come about?

Roberto Juarez:

Well, originally when I was at graduate film school, I was invited to be an assistant camera on a theater festival in San Jose. And I went and I was assisting on this production when the socialist countries that were there threw a revolt. And everything stopped. Nobody wanted to do any theater. There was fighting and protest. And Ellen Stewart got up in the middle of this auditorium and just called school. Said, okay kids, we have to get together. We're here to make theater. We can protest. But we have to make theater. And she was such a beautiful figure. I mean, it was amazing. And then she came to me, because we were videotaping all this and said, if you ever come to New York, you call me up, baby. I'll find you somewhere to live. Somewhere to work. Just call me up. Cuz I need somebody to videotape my theater. And so, I moved to New York. And the first boyfriend I had, lover was Mark Tambella, who was the technical director at La MaMa. And so I got to meet Ellen again. Who, it was very sweet, to offer me this garage to paint. She says, I'm trying to make a Galleria, a gallery. I don't want a highfalutin gallery. I want a Galleria for the people. And I want you to bring the art energy into this space. And so if you clean it, we can make a gallery here. And I did. I cleaned it up. I built a wall with Mark. And we worked there.

Jimmy Wright:

Well, I remember the walls were painted for, designated as car spots. Uh, car parking spaces. And you had spotlights. So it was a giant dark room with spotlights with Roberto painting and his painting on the wall.

Roberto Juarez:

In a hose, cuz...

Jimmy Wright:

In a hose.

Roberto Juarez:

There was no, there was no sink.

Jimmy Wright:

And it was cold.

Roberto Juarez:

It was cold. I had to paint fast. I had to keep warm.

Jimmy Wright:

Well, it's interesting that part of our gay culture has always been performative and theatrical. Whether it's the persona a gay person assumes as they're walking in a public space, like down the street. A man with a, this is Arch, a man with a beard and large hair, natural hair, no makeup or anything, but he has on a dress. And it's so interesting, now in New York, I see that all the time on the Lower East Side. Where it's masculine men wearing feminine clothes. So, it's interesting how it's been absorbed in a larger cultural sense. And that could be because we live in New York. It doesn't necessarily mean it's happening in central Illinois.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

So you're talking a little bit about this, you know, what exists now versus what existed then. And it, I've been thinking as you're talking about these communities that you've discussed. And you know, you've met at Southern Illinois University, Jimmy, you were, you know, president of the Gay Lib Group or founded the Gay Lib Group. There's a community in San Francisco. The community you found in, in New York. But I'm curious about the sort of larger space in the world. The New York art world. The San Francisco art world. Did you feel like there was space for you? Part of this question is also coming from the conversation of strong voices or being like, strong artistic voice. Or did you feel there was space for you? Did it feel like the space was like fought, hard fought space?

Jimmy Wright:

The reason I moved to New York was the sense that it was the only place in the United States where I could feel safe as a gay man. I had a best friend brutally beaten to death in Chicago. Southern Illinois outside of the university was a highly homophobic environment that included the Ku Klux Klan. Highly conservative. I came from western Kentucky, the same atmosphere. I had spent a summer in LA where you get in your car and you drive 40 miles to an event. I didn't, though I was familiar with West Hollywood and the gay community there. It was the sense of distance. And Orange County is extremely conservative. And at that time, also homophobic. I thought I was gonna have a career in the academic world. I soon realized, oh, to get tenure in any university within an art department, there was an unspoken quota. It was always obvious there was a quota on the number of women that received tenure. There was also a quota on the number of gay people that received tenure. And I didn't know how to navigate any of that. I did know New York was where Allen Ginsburg lived. I didn't know William Burrows lived here. And I had maybe one or two gay New York friends that I had met through friends in Chicago. But it was just the sense that New York offered a place where you could be anonymous and be yourself. And other than learning how to navigate New York Street life, one could be one's complete self. And my journey to the Lowe East Side, well actually it was my journey to the Bowery. To a loft where I could paint. It was all guided by this place. Soon as I arrived, I knew I was never leaving. That I had found home. And I hadn't found, necessarily, my community yet. But it was 1970s New York was on the brink of bankruptcy. Uh, when I moved to the Bowery in 76, Alphabet City was burned out, desolate. There were whole pockets of urban decay. And the Bowery is the Bowery. I was surrounded every day. I walked out my loft front door onto the Bowery and I saw alcoholics passed out. It was both rocked bottom. And the very top of creative opportunity. And I always felt like I was a refugee and I arrived in New York. And I think, to a certain degree, that still exists. Though a young artist doesn't end up in a 3000 square foot loft in the Bowery. They arrive with $60,000 in school debt. And they live with six other people in Brooklyn or Queens. But New York still beckons in a way that no other American city, I think, feels as welcoming.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Hmm. Yeah, the comment about the quota really hits at one of the things I was curious about in terms of having space in the larger world. Because as much as you can find your community, and it's really interesting to hear both of your journeys, to find community and, sort of, specifically within your identity, feel uncomfortable and safe. But the question of, you know, where you're showing your work? How, what your work looks like? And then how then a gallery or the larger art market then defines you and then creates a quota, is kind of where that space question comes from.

Jimmy Wright:

Well, first of all, in the seventies and eighties, the New York, so-called New York Gallery World was much, much smaller than what we have now. It didn't make it easier to arrive as a known artist. But one could see everything in one month that was available. That included museum shows. And of course, being young helps. You can, your stamina, your curiosity, New York just constantly fed you. That opportunity still exists. But as I've aged, I have an image bank. The digital world has totally changed everything for all artists. I still think I need to be here. I still feel most comfortable being my gay self here. What's interesting about Roberto's career is that it developed and matured, from a professional sense, it developed uptown. While our peers were developing downtown. So, if I compare Roberto, Roberto's career to my friend Arch Connelly's career, there's this dramatic different context. Which was why I was interested in the influence of gay performative culture that you, that Roberto encountered in the seventies in San Francisco. And I'm gonna add one more. You also studied with the Kuchar Brothers?

Roberto Juarez:

Yes, George Kuchar. But also the idea of, back to performance. I also worked with Shirley Clark at UCLA graduate film department. She was my mentor. And she gave me the opportunity to create a, a cable show. And cable was brand new. And I was given a primetime show to show films from the film school. But I took that opportunity and used the studio to bring in punk bands. I was really into Alternative music. And so, I did all this very early work with X and the Go-Go's when they were a punk band. Remember that? Probably not, but they were. And so, the excitement of performance became video. And video and art were intertwined. Which it still is. But once I got out of school, I didn't really go back to anything like film or television. I just painted. And back to the question of finding your own space, I don't think I had like a plan or it wasn't facilitated by institutions. I came home and at dinner with the whole family, my father says, so when are you gonna get a new girlfriend? And I said, I'm not gonna get a new girlfriend. I like boys. It was that simple. I mean, I just laid it out. And one by one, all my brothers got up and left a table. My mother left a table. My father left a table. And I was alone. And I realized that I had to go. I had to go and find my own place. And my own home, my own family was not going to be that place. And part of finding that place was just a few people that I could depend on and trusted and was inspired by. Such as Arch Connelly and Jed Garrett and Dana Garrett. And San Francisco became my new family. My extended family. And I think, that's how I made space for myself, was creating these families of interesting creative people. That in every port, from San Francisco to Los Angeles to New York, I found family. And that's what created the space for me. And, you know, the opportunities were really lucky. I mean, the whole Robert Miller connection was lucky. And I had physical, figurative sexy work, too. And it's never made it to the gallery. But it's part of this collection of, of drawings and works on paper I have from the eighties. So, those subjects were there. And so, it's his family. He was part, he became part of the family.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Do you feel like these works and, uh, a little insight for the audience, I got to visit Roberto's studio a few months ago and see these works in person. So, I got to see him pull out these works from the eighties. And what struck me is, one, you know, keeping an archive of your own work. But then in this question, you know, we're talking about the space you're creating for yourself, what people are willing to show and not willing to show, in some ways, do these works that have remained in your possession, are they indicative of a voice that wasn't allowed to like, be heard at that time? Like, if they're not out of your own possession, in some ways, that's like, what people weren't willing to take.

Roberto Juarez:

Well, I think both of us have had this experience where...

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

yeah.

Roberto Juarez:

...you present work. And in my case, the word used was it's unsellable.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Mm-hmm.

Roberto Juarez:

You know, if you take your painting with the broken cup and it, you know, is as pretty as I think it is, it could fill a wall. But you're painting with the naked model, with the ballerinas, not so sellable. So that was the simple, it wasn't like they were suppressing it as subject.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Mm-hmm.

Roberto Juarez:

It was financial. I mean, basically they had to make money for me to live. And these were works that they thought they could sell. That's what they taught me.

Jimmy Wright:

Commerce really drives the majority of the art world.

Roberto Juarez:

They don't admit it, but it does.

Jimmy Wright:

Well, it's...

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

I think maybe more people are willing to admit it now. It's a little less romanticism.

Jimmy Wright:

Well, you know...

Roberto Juarez:

I hope.

Jimmy Wright:

I, I live a block from the Bowery Store Supreme. Uh, so I see huge lines of people lined up when a new product's gonna drop. And of course, we all know even the logo Supreme is a ripoff of Barbara Cougar. Its origins are very ironic in terms of imagery connected to product. And, in a sense, there's an, there was an honesty to that that wasn't admitted in the eighties and nineties in the art world and of course, uh, unless maybe you look at someone like Richard Prince, that now is sort of self-evident to everyone. I mean, we could, we could talk about the Kardashians. Uh, it's like, it's, it's, uh...

Roberto Juarez:

Never did I think I'd hear that word on this podcast. That's interesting.

Jimmy Wright:

Uh, some artists that operate as if they were the Kardashians. Because that's become such an envelope of identity and communication that's easily transmitted. So, as artists that started for me in the seventies in New York, for Roberto, late seventies, early eighties in New York, we've seen a whole transformation of what we call the art world. It's both fascinating and bewildering.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Do you feel. I feel like the way that younger artists, we hear, you know, mentors, professors talk about the art world, especially New York in the seventies and 80 to hear about it all the time with a sort of romanticism. Do you feel an, like a nostalgia for aspects of that? Or like, what are your thoughts on this progression you've seen over your careers?

Roberto Juarez:

I, I have no nostalgia for it. You know, I've lived it once. That's good. And, and, you know, I learned and created and, and enjoyed and loved. And now we're somewhere else. And I think it's equally exciting in a different way.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Mm-hmm.

Roberto Juarez:

I mean, it's, it's odd to be a senior. Which all of a sudden I am. And to keep that in mind because I'm very excited about the next chapter of what I'm making and how I'm going to show it and who's gonna see it, and how it's gonna be put out there. I'm on Instagram every day. It's like a diary for me. I love the communication with other colleagues there. And that couldn't have been possible in the eighties or nineties. So, I'm kind of excited about the moment.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Hmm.

Jimmy Wright:

I agree. I don't have any nostalgia for the past. I'm occupying an aging body. It's curious to be at a point in my life where I recognize, everything in my environment has changed,

Roberto Juarez:

Except me, I'm still around.

Jimmy Wright:

And that, I bring, in a sense, a repository of memories and experiences to what is, for me, a brave new world.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

What do you think should not be lost from like, your, you know, every generation kind of like, has to relearn a lesson. Or there's like things that get lost and then things that are, sort of, brought forward. Like what do you hope is brought forward from, sort of, your experiences over the last few decades?

Jimmy Wright:

Well, I'm gonna say something that's totally formal. I love painting. I love making marks on a two-dimensional surface. So, it's exciting to see, just as we read a statement about identifying the mission of the National Academy, which is dramatically different from the Academy's mission from 50 years ago. I find our cultural awareness to be extremely exciting. And, because I'm a painter, and because I'm primarily focused on painting, I'm really interested in how, not only what new work is being made by younger artists. But how now we look at past work through an awareness and a wider lens that was not available to me when I was an art student in the Midwest in 1963. So, in one sense, as terrifying as the future is, and as anxious producing the present is, it's still extremely exciting to be alive and to be making art.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

I love that as a, just like a thing, I mean, we're not ending yet. But it's like, oh, this is like a great ending. Well, I do think you actually created a great segue into one of our sort of ending conversations, which we always go towards, is this the context of the National Academy. So, you guys are both here because you're National Academicians. That's acknowledgement of your peers of, uh, level of career accolade and success and experience. And as you mentioned, you both read our Historical Acknowledgement before we started. Which is this perspective of like our current role as a historical institution in present day. So, I'm curious of your own perspective of being a National Academician. Sort of, not the institution, but the person, a member of this ongoing organization. How do you conceive of yourself or the organization that you're a part of this?

Roberto Juarez:

Well, I love being part of this Academy. Because, uh, it has allowed me to connect with a lot of different generations of artists. That's one of the, the best things about it. Before the pandemic, we had exhibitions, the annual. We had readings and conversations about different types of art and periods of art. And, you know, I loved going to, we had weekly, I, I, no, it was monthly conversations about galleries that were exhibiting shows. And so, that's how I got involved with this. So I started coming to those nights before I was a member and just talking to people. And New York became a community again. It became somewhere where there were real people. It wasn't just this thing that you read in a magazine or a newspaper or online. They were real people. And they were really interesting people. So, that's part of the joy of being in this organization. And, to the future. I think, you know, now that the pandemic is over, and how we come together, is gonna be very important

Jimmy Wright:

For me, since I've been in New York since the seventies and was aware of the Academy in the seventies as being male dominated. White male, East Coast male, figurative painting dominated. I think it's incredibly exciting to see how we as a community are expanding that definition of Academy. And I think it's fascinating how queer artists, feminist artists, artists of color, have taken this old vessel of figurative painting and injected it with their own identity. Which in a sense, had been repressed within the Academy. So it's taking a very traditional form. And for me, any painting is traditional form. And infusing it with a new energy. That's an affirmation of, not only, personal identity. But of group identity that has been repressed culturally and socially. And I love that I'm here representing, in a sense, gay artists. Maybe that wasn't the intent when I was elected. But I think Roberto and I both feel, we arrive in a room, it's now gay. Well, gayer. So...

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

And better for it.

Roberto Juarez:

And, and, and it's a learning experience. I'm curious how we're gonna accomplish this.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Mm-hmm.

Roberto Juarez:

And how we're gonna accomplish this and feel we've recognized the best of what's available in terms of the artists out there.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Mm-hmm.

Roberto Juarez:

Or how we've accomplished, recognizing the best, who were overlooked. Um, I think that's an exciting and challenging responsibility.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Absolutely. I mean, I definitely think that's something that we've talked about, Anjelic and I've talked about a lot, of the acknowledging people of overlooked, um, and the past. And sort of, it's programs, our work is very centered on the present and, you know, things for the future. But being able to dive into more in depth, the stories, the histories, identities, people who feel like they're not necessarily, even if you're in the Academy, that you aren't necessarily representative of the like, conversations that are being had. Or need to be had. Or need to be acknowledged. So it's exciting to get to help an institution do that.

Jimmy Wright:

Well, and that's what's so interesting about Roberto's career. And the sort of milieu he fell into around Robert Miller. Joan Mitchell was totally considered secondary.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Wright:

As an abstract expressionist. Lee Krasner was considered to be Pollock's wife.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Wright:

And Louise Bourgeois, I mean, I was in New York when, in a sense she was officially recognized as a great artist. For me, it's like, well, these were all women in their seventies when they started receiving some kind of serious recognition. And, and a sense the same thing has happened to me and my career. That I'm even being recognized for the first time within my gay community as a serious voice. So it's, it's exciting. And it's all unknown. It's all new. Which is what any learning experience is.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Are there any other comments, thoughts? How was this experience for you guys? First podcast, Roberto. Second podcast, Jimmy.

Roberto Juarez:

No, I'm a virgin. This is the first time. Just like a virgin. I loved, I mean, I love Jimmy. I, I admire and respect him. And, you know, I'm thrilled that we have had the experiences we had. So, I appreciate that we could get it down. And this will become part of the archive, I hope.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Exactly.

Roberto Juarez:

Of the Academy

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

I love this as archive.

Roberto Juarez:

It's history. We're gonna, we got our words out here.

Jimmy Wright:

Well, I'm just gonna add, I'm excited that Roberto and I are alive to be here to make this podcast. Because we've spoken of some of the younger gay artists that we knew in the seventies and eighties, that all died of aids.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Yeah.

Jimmy Wright:

And as I remarked earlier, I had, I have a whole string of friends from the sixties who died either from violence or suicide or overdose. So, the pressure society puts on those that the majority wishes to make invisible, uh, are intense.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Wright:

And destructive. And we're all artists. And we're, we're interested in constructing the positive. Even if that means exposing the negative.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Wright:

And it's all life-affirming.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Well, in some ways I think what you're talking about, too, is like the importance of you speaking and archiving your conversation is also continuing legacies of those you've known. And continuing to bring up names of people who you've, you know, influenced you, continues their legacy when they're, in the absence of them being able to do that. And so it's important that you acknowledge your presence being bigger than yourself.

Jimmy Wright:

Yes.

Roberto Juarez:

I would just add one thing.

Jimmy Wright:

Yeah.

Roberto Juarez:

At the Arch Connolly show that we did at La MaMa, we worked along with some colleagues to bring him back up. Because he had been forgotten and ended up becoming the collection of the Museum of Modern Art and the Whitney Museum because of that show.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Mm-hmm.

Roberto Juarez:

But in putting together that show, some of the younger artists that were helping us put it together said, you know, this is like the uncle, not the uncles, these are the teachers, the gay teachers that we never had. Because there's a whole generation that didn't have all these gay teachers.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Mm-hmm.

Roberto Juarez:

And so the fact that we are still around to teach and talk about those experiences, I think is so important.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Mm-hmm.

Roberto Juarez:

And I appreciate very much this opportunity.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Absolutely. I think that's super important, too. Thank you guys so much for joining.

Jimmy Wright:

Thank you.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

This has been really fun.

Jimmy Wright:

Thank you, Roberto. I just feel, I feel inadequate because. Roberto has uncrated this exciting body of work that's, sort of, like a time capsule now. And I feel I'm inadequate in describing how good this body of work is.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Well, the good news is, we always add images to our website to accompany the episodes. So for the audience, don't miss out on those images. And so people will get to see whatever you would like for us to share to be the website.

Jimmy Wright:

Fantastic.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

And that includes for your work as well, Jimmy. So...

Jimmy Wright:

Thank you.

Roberto Juarez:

And this summer for two months, I will have brand new work up in Hudson, New York.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Oh, fantastic.

Roberto Juarez:

TSL is a warehouse space that is a performance space. But I am going to create new work for their gala, uh, anniversary, 50th anniversary. So, for two months this summer, come to Hudson and see my new paintings.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Fantastic. Great.

Jimmy Wright:

And I have a show opening in Chicago in March. And I'm in a group show of three artists in Vienna that opens in May.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Fantastic. Where's the show in Chicago?

Jimmy Wright:

Corbett vs. Dempsey.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Oh, nice. John Corbett was my teacher.

Jimmy Wright:

Ah, far out.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Um, fantastic.

Roberto Juarez:

Well thank you again.

Jimmy Wright:

Thank you.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Thank you guys.

Roberto Juarez:

Yay.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

So that was fun. Our first in-person recording.

Anjelic Owens:

Yes. honestly, it was, it was really special, honestly. To see them in person and then also to see them interacting and everything like that.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Yeah, we, we got to share a meal with them beforehand, too. So it was just nice to like, ease into the conversation podcast space. You now, we got all this like technical stuff. So, it's nice to just, like, be people in a room together sometimes. And, uh, get to just understand like, people's personalities. And how they interact. Get to know them a little bit. We've noticed sometimes that people come into these conversations with an idea of what they wanna talk about. And I think the longer we do it, the more people hear other people's conversations, there's like, an awareness of what they wanna do with this time. Sometimes people come into an episode to record and it's clear, they kind of know what they wanna talk about. Which, I think the longer we do it, the more people listen to the other conversations.

Anjelic Owens:

Yeah.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

It's understandable. They're a little more conscious of what they wanna do with this time and this space.

Anjelic Owens:

Yeah. And I feel like, usually, it's nice even if they come in with an agenda or like topics, it is nice that over time, like, as they get more comfortable into the conversation, like, you start to see those like more organic moments.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Yeah. I mean, and so I think I recognized fairly early on in this conversation, like, they wanted to talk about this period of time that they knew each other that Roberto kind of uncovered a time capsule of work from, what he said, like 1979 through like, the mid to late eighties.

Anjelic Owens:

Mm-hmm.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

And so it really like ended up being a conversation about that time through the work. Through this work that Roberto has been going through.

Anjelic Owens:

Yeah. Over 65 paintings.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Yeah.

Anjelic Owens:

I mean like, I think it's cool to see that, if anything, when he opened up these works, like, he's reopening a point of time in his life, you know? And they were able to like remember together and also just kind of like walk down memory lane if anything. So...

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

And I think, what we, sort of, started to understand throughout the conversation, is this period, which we already know. We had no history. We know art history. This period of time was tumultuous. Especially for gay men in New York.

Anjelic Owens:

Yeah.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

So, they're a part of this community. This queer community. And it's, you know, AIDS is ravaging that community. It's ravaging New York. It's ravaging the art community.

Anjelic Owens:

Yeah.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

And it was just really. Interesting to, sort of, understand their journey in that period of time. And who they were seeking out. Like how they got to New York.

Anjelic Owens:

Mm-hmm.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

What was necessary for them to survive and thrive.

Anjelic Owens:

Yeah. And I like that they're really honest about that. And just recognizing that they are still here and are able to be present. And able to still recognize and say the names of the folks that, that aren't here in the, in the current moment.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

And you brought up a good point, Anjelic, is that like, it was really a recognition that community is not just friends. It's like a lifesaving, um, network. That...

Anjelic Owens:

Yes.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

...that, in the absence of a community, that people really might not survive.

Anjelic Owens:

Yeah. And if anything, like yeah, Roberto's touching on that point. Like, he's able to find housing through like, his connections. Through that he was able to explore like, different . Mediums while he was in the West Coast. And so it's like, there's a lot of opportunities for them, to develop that true chosen family.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Right. And moving to, you know, moving to a new city with nothing, like, I've, I've moved a lot. I totally know that space of like, I don't know anybody. Let me like go to something. Or like,

Anjelic Owens:

Yeah.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

The one person I kind of know, let me reach out to them.

Anjelic Owens:

Yeah.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Let me get an odd job until I can afford to live someplace, and, you know, eat regular real food. Like whatever, you know, whatever you need to do in those first months that like, he's building a community from scratch. And then pulling that community to different places. So like, from San Francisco, people coming to New York. And like recognizing the importance, like in retrospect of that community he built so long ago.

Anjelic Owens:

Yeah, exactly. And if anything, I love that the compound, like, like not even compound. The exponential nature of a community, like it's not just your internal community. But it extends outside of yourself. And so like, they were able to develop other connections through that initial community. And. Yeah.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Yeah, like these people, these artists who are influencing them. And maybe they have relationships that aren't as close as like their, their best friends in their small community.

Anjelic Owens:

Mm-hmm.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

But, you know, these women artists say brought up, you know, and I thought it was really interesting for them to contextualize relationships of, like, Lee Krasner's work was really impactful on Roberto. When he's like, well, we aren't necessarily your friends. But like, they were friendly or...

Anjelic Owens:

mm-hmm.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Louise Bourgeois, you know, being sort of in that same gallery space and gallery community as him.

Anjelic Owens:

Yeah. That was actually really cool to, to see the different people that, that impacted during that time as they were artists.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Yeah. I also, I know it's an interesting, too, like that like, understanding like these women, they're, as they were talking about the women artists like, gaining recognition later. And like seeing the, like, the work that's happening without the, the recognition. And sort of understanding that, over decades they're seeing people with really incredible careers, making really excellent work. And they're seeing some people. Like Jean-Michel Basquiat, you know, skyrocket into this like really like commercial success. And they're seeing some people that have taken longer to get to that space.

Anjelic Owens:

Yeah. And I think that's, I like that they did bring up that point. Because when and how an artist will receive recognition can inherently impact the trajectory of their practice. And so I think it is interesting, like most people don't talk about it. So, I think I like that they were very upfront and honest about how that impacted them themselves. And how they saw it impact others

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Yeah.

Anjelic Owens:

Within their community. So...

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

And I think for two artists who have been around for decades, have seen a lot of really interesting work. A lot of really interesting artists come and go live and die.

Anjelic Owens:

Yeah.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

That they are remarkably positive.

Anjelic Owens:

Yes. That was so special. Honestly.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

They're not jaded in this way that like, I think so many young artists. Were used to having professors or just like, mentors, artists, whatever that you talk to who speak about, you know, 30, 40 years ago in this way of like, it's not the same. And it's like a jadedness. It's just a little disheartening to listen to sometimes.

Anjelic Owens:

Yeah.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

When you recognize we're in the present and we can't go back.

Anjelic Owens:

We can't go back.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

And they don't wanna go back. There was no interest in going backwards. Uh, that they're really excited about the future. Their own work.

Anjelic Owens:

Yes. Excited to move forward. And I think that is the most like, endearing thing to hear. Just to know that like, they can acknowledge the past. It, it was what it was. But they're not trying to go back. They're definitely trying to actively move forward. And our welcoming change and like, uncertainty. And new ways of making work. And like it, it was really refreshing to hear. Honestly.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

It was great. I feel like they dropped some gems at the end. It was just like really, made me excited to be in this world.

Anjelic Owens:

Yes. Yeah. And I, I liked when Jimmy was saying how, he's like, yeah, like we may not be like, you know, getting a insanely large loft in Bowery. And like, in a similar parallel. It's like, no, but we will be having like six roommates living in Bushwick.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Oh yeah. The new, yeah. new generations. Yeah. Yes. Right. The nostalgia that we hear so often is like how Manhattan specifically was like, you could get a loft of the Bowery. You know, it's just raw space. And it was all me. And it's like, that's not exactly what the trajectory is anymore. But that doesn't mean there's not like exciting ways to make work in this city.

Anjelic Owens:

Exactly. And I, and the access is like, it's such a special thing. Like, although I don't have the studio of my dreams. I can go to the Brooklyn Museum down the street. You know, like

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Yeah.

Anjelic Owens:

That's, having that access to see what is being made. And like, there was this insane wave of like art spaces made during Covid that popped up during Covid. So it's like the art world is very much alive and well. And it is an exciting time to be a part of.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Also the like, romanticizing these like big spaces in Manhattan. They also clarified that Roberto's uh, space in La MaMa, the basement of La MaMa had no heat.

Anjelic Owens:

Yeah.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

So, it's like these weren't, I like don't know that that is my ideal studio space either. So...

Anjelic Owens:

Exactly.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

You know.

Anjelic Owens:

We're grateful for it.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Keeping things in perspective.

Anjelic Owens:

Perspective. We love perspective. Don't forget to like, follow and subscribe to the podcast on your favorite streaming platform. We'd also love it if you took the time to leave us a review.

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

We are a 5 0 1 C 3 nonprofit organization dedicated to promoting art and architecture. And we rely on your support to make programs like this possible. To learn more and to donate, visit National Academy.org. This conversation was recorded on January 9th, 2023. Exquisite Corpse is written and produced by Adrienne Elise Tarver and Anjelic Owens. And co-produced Mixed and edited by Mike Clemow and Wade Strange at . SeeThru Sound. We look forward to...

Anjelic Owens:

reading your comments and reviews...

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

Doing this with you the next time. And uh, that's all folks.

Anjelic Owens:

See you next time. Are you Bugs Bunny? What is going on? That's all folks?

Adrienne Elise Tarver:

I know, as soon as I said it I was like oh geez.

People on this episode

Contributor

Adrienne Elise Tarver

Host
Contributor

Anjelic Owens

Co-host