Exquisite Corpse: Contemporary Conversations
Exquisite Corpse: Contemporary Conversations is a podcast series from the National Academy of Design featuring conversations between National Academicians. This podcast is a space for the artists and architects who have shaped this institution to connect, discuss, and ask questions of each other. National Academy Director of Programs and Series Host Adrienne Elise Tarver takes you into the organization that is contending with its almost 200-year history and finding its place in the 21st century.
Exquisite Corpse: Contemporary Conversations
Pat Lasch NA + James Timberlake NA
The last episode of Season 3 joins old friends, artist Pat Lasch and architect James Timberlake. Their conversation explores how their residency experiences, spirituality, and childhoods influence their work. They reminisce about their time in Rome where they both attended the American Academy residency in 1982. Each took different approaches to engaging with the city and formed a lasting bond with their cohort. They also discuss spirituality, how it informs their creative practices, and how it is different than religion and the church. Through religion they touch on sensitive topics, but they hold space for their different experiences and embark on a reflective conversation of nuanced views.
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Back everyone. I'm Anjelic Owens, the host of the National Academy podcast, Exquisite Corpse.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Anjelic? Are, did you start without me?
Anjelic Owens:Hi, Adrian. Of course not.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Oh, ok.
Anjelic Owens:I'm just checking the mics.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Okay, it just, it sounded like maybe you were, you were hosting, but, okay. Well, are we ready?
Anjelic Owens:Yes. Yes.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Well, I'm Adrienne Elise Tarver, the host of the National Academy Podcast. And I'm joined by my co-host...
Anjelic Owens:Anjelic Owens.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:This podcast is a series of conversations between artists and architects who've been elected by their peers to the National Academy of Design for their extraordinary contributions to art and culture and America.
Anjelic Owens:These are the national academicians, and they are at the core of the oldest artist run organization in the United States.
Anjelic & Adrienne:This as Exquisite Corpse.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Welcome back to the podcast. This is the last episode of this season, and we're excited to welcome back a past participant, Pat Lasch, who decided to speak to Architect James Timberlake. But first, our historical acknowledgement.
Eliza Coviello:Hi, my name is Elijah Coviello and I'm the Deputy Director at the National Academy of Design. The National Academy of Design was initiated by artists and architects to fill a void in the American artistic landscape of the 19th century. But we recognize our history has excluded many communities and cultures whose lineages and practices must be included in this country's art, historical canon. Indigenous peoples, people of color, queer and non-binary individuals, and people with disabilities. We are committed to a process of dismantling the ongoing legacies of settler colonialism and white supremacy. We are excited to move forward and have conversations that reflect the important questions and issues of today. We are the National Academy of Design, and you are listening to Exquisite Corpse.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:So, Anjelic, we are at the end of season three. And we have another one of these second chain or like second fold of the Exquisite Corpse conversation. And I feel like they're a little different. What do you think?
Anjelic Owens:Yes. The second fold conversations, they, they definitely have a different energy to them.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah. I feel like, you know, we're learning of course more about the person that's returning. But we also are seeing a different side of them based on who they're talking to and how that person differs from the previous person. Whatever relationships they have with these people beforehand, how they know them or how they know their work.
Anjelic Owens:You can definitely feel that comfort and you can feel like they, they're willing to go to different topics with each other. But I feel like there is an interesting dynamic within the artist and architecture conversations.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah. I mean, this one, we're doing between an artist and architect again. And the first conversation we had with her was between artists and artists. I mean, do you feel like you're learning about architecture? Cause I feel like I'm learning a lot about architecture.
Anjelic Owens:Yes. But what has been really refreshing in these conversations is how like, practical and accessible, the way that they talk about their practices and the way that they engage with managing a firm and everything like that. So I, I've been learning a ton.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah. I'm liking how I'm understanding their creative process. The differences, but also the similarities of their creative process. And also, yeah, this like, the way they manage an architecture firm, is often very different because artists are, we're isolated a lot in our studios. And even if we have assistant or we're working with people, we get to be the primary decision makers for the work.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And an architect has so many people that they're talking with, answering to. They've got clients. They've got engineers. They've got the community.
Anjelic Owens:And I guess, would you say that, since they have to communicate with so many different, uh, stakeholders, would you categorize that as being multilingual?
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I mean, I think that's a great way to characterize it. I mean, they have to switch the interests and also that yeah, level of accessibility depending on who they're talking to. And help translate their ideas and concepts into digestible and interesting formats for people to get their vision.
Anjelic Owens:That's definitely a character trait that can also be seen with artists as well. So, there definitely is like a clear, like, overlapping nature between art and architecture?
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Well, especially artists that are working in public space.
Anjelic Owens:Mm-hmm.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I mean, like, we saw this with Mary Miss talking to both Michael Maltzan and Jeanne Gang. She's an artist who makes work in public space. So, she's engaging with community. She's going through, sometimes really long processes like the architects are. And I didn't even realize until these conversations that, these architects are looking at artists that work in public space like Mary Miss, in school. So, that...
Anjelic Owens:mm-hmm.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:...overlap is natural to their education as well as their practice once they're, you know, professionals.
Anjelic Owens:Yes. Well, speaking of overlap with artists and architect conversations, when we're looking at Pat and James, do you think that they know each other?
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I mean, I feel like they must, right? So, a little insight for our listeners. We ask people who they might be interested in speaking with. And sometimes they like take a minute to think about it. We send them a list of the Academicians and they might send us back a few people that they're interested in. Pat knew right away. There was no delay. And I think both of us were kind of like, wait a second. How, she must know him. How, he's an architect. How, where did they overlap? Where, where's this happening?
Anjelic Owens:Yeah. Yeah. You're right. You're right. I definitely feel like there must be a, a preexisting vibe, for sure. I'm interested to see what they're gonna talk about.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Pat's work is not necessarily a, sort of like, outdoor public work. So, understanding like, if they know each other, how they know each other. Or if they, even if they just know each other's work, like how and why do they know each other's work, is also something I would love to understand.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah, definitely. That could be an interesting point.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And so I said, you know, Pat immediately knew who she wanted to talk to. James also immediately said yes. So, it wasn't just so like, oh, she clearly just wants to talk to him. He clearly seems, like knows who she is and it feels like there must be some kind of friendship there already. I'm excited to hear this. So today we're rejoined by Pat Lasch, who we've had on season two. She's an artist known for her sculptures which use acrylic paint in an intricate way that mimics things like lace. She makes objects like wedding dresses and decorative cakes with this method. Her work is rooted in personal narratives pulling on her father's history as a German pastry chef. She's also part of the feminist discourse of the 1970s, one of the early members of A.I.R. Gallery, and she studied at Queens College and Lives and works in New York. James Timberlake is a founder and partner of the architectural firm, Kieran Timberlake. He is known for pioneering efficient construction methods, resourceful conservation strategies, including Smart Wrap, which is actively ventilated curtain wall on things like the Levine Hall at University of Pennsylvania or Cellophane House, a recyclable energy gathering dwelling that was exhibited at the Museum of Modern Art. And, uh, the Embassy of the United States and London, which uses strategies to significantly reduce energy consumption to achieve carbon neutrality. He's also. Built a 750,000 square foot mixed-use, academic, athletic, and housing building at New York University. So, we're excited to have these two guests on today. Let's get to it.
Pat Lasch:I'm Pat Lasch. And I'm a sculptor. And I've known Jim since 1982. And I wanna talk about Rome.
James Timberlake:And, uh, I'm James Timberlake. But I'm also known to some as Jim. And particularly, some of my fellow fellows from the American Academy. And I'm interested in talking about Rome and Italy myself, too. So, but there's lots of ground to cover over the last 40 years. So, I'm looking forward to that.
Pat Lasch:Oh, me too.
James Timberlake:Yeah. Yeah,
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I'm looking forward to hearing about it. Okay, so then I'm gonna start you guys off with one question and then you can go wherever you want to from there.
James Timberlake:Great.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:So, Pat...
Pat Lasch:I was hoping it'd start with Jim.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:But, but the nature of this podcast, so Exquisite Corpse, this season we're actually kind of getting to, um, live out the name of the podcast, Exquisite Corpse. Which is based on the game where an artist adds on to another piece. And it, the chain continues, the, the folds of the drawing continue. So, Dotty Attie selected you to be on the last episode, the last episode you participated in. And then when we reach out to you, you immediately knew he wanted to talk to James Timberlake. Can you tell us why?
James Timberlake:Hmm.
Pat Lasch:Yes. Because the Academy is for both artists and architects. And we don't cross over with the architects much. And I remember in Rome, which I'll say a lot of it about that, but I thought it was important that maybe a sculptor and an architect speak. And not just artist to artist or architect to architect.
James Timberlake:And that's what appealed to me about the request was the opportunity to have a kind of crossdisciplinary conversation. And that was the beauty of the American Academy in Rome as well, in, in trying to engender those, those kinds of conversations to happen.
Pat Lasch:Yeah. And do you have another question or can we start talking?
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Oh, you guys can, you guys keep talking. Keep going. I, I interrupted the flow that was already happening. But keep that flow going.
James Timberlake:Yeah.
Pat Lasch:Well, can I, can I start, Jim?
James Timberlake:Sure.
Pat Lasch:When we were in Rome, I was, I guess I was 37 and you must have been about 27.
James Timberlake:I was 29, turning 30. Yeah.
Pat Lasch:You were 29. Yeah, and I was watching you going around, taking photographs and photographs and in my own stupidity, I was going, why isn't he in a studio working? And I realized, Oh my God, you have a collection of about 5,000 photographs of all the architecture in Italy. And I thought, well, Pat, you know, maybe you have aged and now you really understand that he was working. Can you comment about my, uh, about my saying that. I was amazed that you took all these photographs.
James Timberlake:You know, it's interesting how we all have those, if I can use the term biases about how we work versus how others work. So...
Pat Lasch:Yeah.
James Timberlake:...in, in turn, you know, clearly some of us who were constantly out, while we understood studio time for artists, you know, and, and for the composers and writers and all of that. I think we always imposed our own biases about, you know, how we were approaching Rome and the, the use of the Academy in Italy and all of that going forward. So, I I, I have to say first, in reflection on your question, that the, that conversation was two sided, in, in the sense that, and it was ongoing, you know, not only just between your reflecting on how others worked. But also ourselves looking at how some of the other architects were working. Or, or some of the other artists and composers. You know, my proposition for going to Rome was to study the effect that 16th and 17th century drawing had on making architecture. And so it was a kind of parenthetical thesis, i, you know, that I wanted to pursue. And it led to an article and some, some other lectures and things like that. But in order to do that, the appreciation that I needed to view was through a variety of different methodologies. One was the collection of the photographs. In other words, taking pictures of architecture that would form my own kind of archive of, a visual archive. Whether they were interiors or exteriors. The second was also, while I was collecting slides, and by the way, there were almost 15,000 slides, not 5,000.
Pat Lasch:Oh, wow.
James Timberlake:Yeah, yeah. And then I also collected somewhere between, you know, 10 and 12,000 postcards, as well. So, I have all these postcards of landscapes, of buildings, of interiors, of infrastructure that are building related that give a kind of cultural slice of time to that particular moment, as well. And then I was out drawing myself, you know, some of those things that I was photographing or measuring or, you know, trying to appreciate. And then lastly, the last step of it was being in the, in the archives and in the museums. You know, going to the Uffizi. Going to the Milan Archivo Estatal, you know, the, the historical archives up there. And looking at actual 16th, 17th, 15th century drawings in real time. Like at the Uffizi, I had a, I had a drawing that was about the size of this piece of paper, about four by four and a half by four and a half, drawn by Vignola of Villa Caprarola, which you might remember visiting, which is up in Caprarola. Which is that pentagram shaped villa at the end of the, the long processional villa you know, street up through the village. And it's this iconic villa five-sided pentagram with a circular courtyard in the middle of it. And I mean, the drawing for that was a little sketch, you know, on a piece of paper that big in pen that I was able to kind of look at and hold, you know, while I was at the Uffizi. And so, all of those things became my methodology of working. It was a kind of cross pollination of visualization and making. But then in turn, a kind of almost academic appreciation of, uh, historical drawings. So, whereas my observation of you, to turn the question around just for a minute was, you guys really needed, you know, you and Herms and, you know, several of the other fellows really needed that away time from the kind of maddening crowd in New York or in LA from, you know, even from the kind of busyness of the Academy to really be enveloped by, but also dive deeply into some thinking about your own work. That took time and took some adjustment. Because you're in a new space and you don't have all your, your tool sets and your equipment and your media. And then you have all the distractions, the daily distractions, you know? So it, in some ways it was easier on us, I think, than perhaps you. But that, that may be my own, again, my own personal bias. You know, that in order for you to work, you really needed to kind of try to push back some of the things that would normally envelop you, you know? Is that right?
Pat Lasch:Well, yeah, in a sense it was. But I was also there to absorb, kind of, the history of the centuries of the layer upon layer of people living and dying and all the...
James Timberlake:Mm-hmm.
Pat Lasch:um, buildings that were around. And I too, the Ufizzi, knocked me on my tush. It was just so many gorgeous things there. But one of the things that just struck me about your talk is that, there was a, a little drawing, like four inches by four inches for this magnificent building. And I don't draw very often. I sometimes draw. But that's how I make an image. It's like four or five lines of something that's in my head.
James Timberlake:Mm-hmm.
Pat Lasch:And then that's how it appears. And then the work works on itself. As I'm working on it, it tells me what to do or not what to do. So, yeah, I, I like that.
James Timberlake:Well, I, I, I'm just intrigued by the, first of all, the title of this, Exquisite Corpse. You know, because your work, you know, in, in Italy when we were there, you were, you were doing these sculptures that were, you know, because you had faced a life circumstance of your own, you know, prior to coming to Rome. And you were exploring, you know, those emotions and some of those outcomes through your work. And it was, many of those had a kind of funerary, uh, tableau to them. I mean, you know, the kind of wedding. I think there were, there was. wedding dresses and, and some other kinds of things. Right? Uh, did, did I have that right?
Pat Lasch:Uh, yeah. The wedding dresses, I didn't do then. But yeah, there was a, definitely a funeral, funeral aspect to my work.
James Timberlake:You had lost your mother or something? No, was it?
Pat Lasch:Well, oh boy.
James Timberlake:Sorry, sorry.
Pat Lasch:Uh...
James Timberlake:Yeah.
Pat Lasch:No, what, what happened was, um, when I was 13, I was molested by Bishop in the Catholic, in the Catholic church. And he was 53. And I left the church when I was 16. I wanted to burn down most churches. So, when I got to Italy it was really hard because they were made of stone. So...
James Timberlake:Yeah.
Pat Lasch:So, I had this obsession with death.
James Timberlake:Hmm.
Pat Lasch:And I think, and, and this, it relates to a question that I wanna ask you about spiritual life. Because for me, uh, when that happened, my God or a sense of feeling secure in the universe was just wiped out.
James Timberlake:Mm-hmm.
Pat Lasch:So, I wanted to ask you about your father being a minister. And how, because I was looking at your work since you developed, you know, that Smart Wrap and...
James Timberlake:mm-hmm.
Pat Lasch:...you know, these homes that you can kind of see through but...
James Timberlake:Mm-hmm.
Pat Lasch:...the use of energy and stuff, it seems like for me, a very spiritual thing. Because it's a way of giving grace to the earth and saying, hey, we're on this planet and we have to find a way to make this work. And so your footprint with making your buildings and stuff is so interesting to me.
James Timberlake:Hmm, hmm.
Pat Lasch:You know, and I was wondering if your spiritual life led to that? Or was it, you know, so could you answer that? I'm just curious.
James Timberlake:Sure, sure. Well, we're all products, obviously of our upbringing in our environments and, and our, our influences. And you know, I think, where we began, the, the, I'll come to this, but where we began our conversation about how old you were and how old I was when we got to the American Academy almost, you know, eight years apart. You were 37, I was 29. I mean that eight years of, of life experiences that you had had, and particularly as a woman, a woman artist, you know, being in New York, all of that was very different obviously than mine growing up in the Midwest. I was hardly sheltered by any stretch of the imagination. But coming through Detroit and then getting to Philadelphia, and of course, you know, a male, you know, and a, and the son of a minister's kid. And, and then being 29, you know? I think at age 29 you think, you know, you're invincible and you're, you know, everything and, and you're cocksure. And I'm sure I had a lot of that expression in my personality, upon reflection at the Academy. And, and how that, you know, affected other people. That upbringing though very much is underpinned by me being a, a minister's kid. Because, you know, my parents were principled and ethical. And they were inclusive. And they were very much not overly religious or overly spiritual, being Episcopalians. But they were, they were mindful of the fact that, I don't wanna say a certain rule set, but there's a certain compartment that, that we should have as human beings. And they had my sisters, one older, one younger, and myself, you know, very much in the midst of that upbringing. How that's affected my work, I think, or influenced the work is, is really interesting. Because I think, you know, the whole notion of of being principal and ethical, I think has underpinned Stephen Kieran and my work. And the firm's work, you know, for 38 years. And, you know, it is being good stewards of the environment. It's making good places for people. It's, it's a little like the Hippocratic Oath in the, in the sense of do no harm, you know, to, uh, you know, to others. And in fact, you know, you're doing something that's gonna be around for 10, 15, 50, a hundred years or more. Do something that, that is worthy of that kind of legacy. And I'm not sure all architects are, are necessarily wired up that way. Um, it's not a criticism of them, by any stretch of the imagination. But, you know, I think some of us, you know, very much our, you know, it's all about the expression of the work and everything else and, and some of these other things may come or go as they may be influenced by the project or the context or whatever. But for us, it's always in there. I mean, you know, whether it's a private home, whether it's a planning project, whether it's the new US Embassy in London, you know, uh, whether it's, um, you know, trying to do mass customizable housing for the middle class of India. You know, it's, it's a really important aspect of our work.
Pat Lasch:Yeah, I, I felt that and, uh, like most architects, I don't think are aware yet of that. I mean, I love some of the buildings of, you know, some of the architects. But you're, when I look at some of your buildings, they not only are conscious of, you know, the heating, the light. Architects are interested in that. But not the way your firm and you are. And yet when you, um, put these buildings together, they have a beauty that is so delicate and so fine that it's almost like an oxymoron. You know, when you think of architecture, you think of something very solid. But there's something ethereal about your work that I'm very moved by. And I'm very moved by the fact that you're conscious of the needs of our earth and of the population. And that we've gotta find a way to make better housing.
James Timberlake:But, you know, pat, I think this is actually the truth. I, I think we're, like I said, we're all influenced by our, the influences that we've been exposed to and come in contact with. So, you know, the context of being at the Academy and being, seeing your work and seeing Hermes's work and others, you know, there, I think creeps into what we do. You know, we have the intricate detail, the fine quality of some of the things that you were doing in terms of stitching and assembly and, just micro detail, really, I think, for a young architect, the, obviously, you know, some of that making, is all about the big gesture. The first move. You know, the conceptual nature of something. But the quality as you spoke to and the, and the detail that you spoke to, I think is really about a much deeper appreciation of what sculpture, what architecture, what art, you know, and painting is all about. In the sense that, there's way more than just that first glance, you know, look at something as an object or as a work. And engaging the depths of, not only making, but also execution. But also how that making and execution influences the kind of visual outcome of what you and we do. And so, that was a huge eye-opener for me at the Academy. I think one of the things that changed me dramatically was a conversation also with Jim Stirling. You know, the resident architect at the time...
Pat Lasch:Right.
James Timberlake:...in the fall. Because, in looking at his work, I realized that there were things missing from Robert Venturi and Denise Scott Brown's work. Not necessarily missing, but obviously a direction that was different from theirs. That was incorporating aspects of architecture in a more overt or exuberant way, spatially and materially, than necessarily what Bob and Denise, uh, and John Rauch were doing with their work. Which is the firm I had come from, you know, to the Academy. So, these things all changed very much for the good coming back from Rome and starting a practice by saying, we want to do this. We don't want to do that. Or we want to evolve that so that it becomes our own and becomes our own signature of making something. But the spiritual side of that, you know, interestingly enough, is you're always a minister's kid. You're always a PK, right? So, if you're born into that.
Pat Lasch:And um, once a Catholic, always a Catholic too.
James Timberlake:Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's exactly right. And, and so, you know, there are good and bad aspects to to, to all of it. Unfortunately. I think you faced some of the worst aspects of, of some of that. But have also engaged it in a way to try and make meaning of it. To try and make, maybe not sense. But certainly put it in perspective as part of a healing process, you know, going forward. Fortunately, I didn't have some of those, those kinds of either rejections or poor influences, um, you know, uh, through religion. Although I've always had a fairly arms length approach to it. Even now, I mean, while I attend church and, you know, been engaged in that, I, I go there more for meditative reasons than I do for any kind of, uh, spiritual answer, if you will. You know what I mean?
Pat Lasch:Yeah.
James Timberlake:If that makes any sense.
Pat Lasch:You're more Quaker than an am Episcopalian.
James Timberlake:Probably. Yeah. It's, exactly. Yeah, we, we had a chance to see your cabin while you're moving around a little bit there. That was great. It's, it's beautiful. It's really great. I'm reminded of Courvoisier little cabin in, in Spain or in Portugal, which he designed. It was plywood. It was, it was just wood. It had a kind of view of the ocean. I've never seen it in person. But it was like, you know, just simple, just basic materials. Clearly, you know, a respite from the usual daily life of urbanism or, you know, the city or, or your main house. And it's, uh, the, those, uh, Meg and I have a place up in Maine, which we're her parents' place on a lake. And, uh, it's very, very rustic with, you know, kinda light coming in. There's a cabin. There's a little ice house, and then there's a main house that she worked on that needs a serious renovation. So...
Pat Lasch:Well, someone, a friend was once here and he said to me, it's like living in a salad bowl. I'll, I'll show you the salad bowl.
James Timberlake:Oh yeah. Great. Yeah, I love that. Cuz you just have a view out to the woods. It's so great.
Pat Lasch:Yeah, it is like living in a salad bowl.
James Timberlake:Yeah. Yeah.
Pat Lasch:So...
James Timberlake:So, we were on the topic of this spirituality and, and work. So, I mean, has that evolved for you in your work over time? I mean, obviously as you've gotten, those life circumstances stay with you for the rest of your life. But as you've created distance to some of that, how has that adjusted for you some of your thinking about your work and its influences?
Pat Lasch:It does always stay with you. I did a whole series of small, like christening dresses and communion dress..
James Timberlake:Mm-hmm.
Pat Lasch:...and then a wedding dress. And the christening dresses had to do with women, like one is named Jean Jeanne Hébuterne who was the mistress of Modigliani. And she had a child with him but. She was pregnant with her second child when she committed suicide.
James Timberlake:Oh gosh.
Pat Lasch:And so there's one named HV, Four Pregnancies, Two Births.
James Timberlake:Mm-hmm.
Pat Lasch:My grandmother had 10 children. But only four lived.
James Timberlake:Wow.
Pat Lasch:And so, I did these little dresses. And so, they kind of look, you know, they're very intricate, of course. They look like lace. But I've made them with paint. So when you first look at 'em, you think, oh, beautiful little dress. But each of these women, or these little girls, grew up and had to deal with some horrific issues. And so those dresses we're dealing with those issues. Right now I'm working on two pieces. One is, uh, I'm working on a series for Pope Joan the Second.
James Timberlake:Hmm.
Pat Lasch:And, yeah...
James Timberlake:nice.
Pat Lasch:Uh, J-O-A-N, not John, John. James Timberlake: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I don't know if you remember, but in the Vatican there's a stool with, uh, holes in it. And it's called the Pope's Chair. And did you, did you ever see it? You might not have.
James Timberlake:I, I don't think I've ever seen it. Yeah.
Pat Lasch:Oh, Tom will tell you all about. So, um, it, it's to check to see that the Pope actually has testicles.
James Timberlake:Oh my gosh.
Pat Lasch:Yeah. And so Pope Joan of the ninth century was supposedly a woman who ended up giving birth. And her partner that took care of her was actually her lover.
James Timberlake:Interesting.
Pat Lasch:And so, um, I'm sort of addressing issues, not only within the church. But within women's issues. Um...
James Timberlake:Mm-hmm.
Pat Lasch:It's just the church is reflective of what's happening. And especially with this whole abortion issue right now, you know? And I mean, we fought so hard for those rights in the sixties and seventies. And to have a total Catholic, Amy Comey Barrett, be...
James Timberlake:mm-hmm.
Pat Lasch:...pro-life and wipe out everyone else's rights. I mean, it, it really struck me very hard.
James Timberlake:Oh, I'm certain of it. And knowing your personal strength, you know, which I came to understand and know while we were in, in Rome, and having an appreciation of your, your principles and ethics that underpinned that strength. Because of things that had happened around you and to you. And, was for a young male, you know, a 29 year old male, who I hardly had a sheltered life, but being a young white male, six foot four...
Pat Lasch:And good looking...
James Timberlake:...self-confident, you know, thank you. But you know, all of that conspires for somebody like myself to think that everybody else is okay. You know what I mean? And I, I think my first real life realizations about, hey, there's a whole other narrative going on in this world. I'm not that naive. But I was just not as aware of or exposed to the vast majority of some of the conversations that, that we ultimately ended up having between you and me. But also between other fellows and ourselves, you know, independently while we were at the Academy. And it, it was fundamental, I think, to coming back, not being the same person. But being a changed person to do things a little differently, you know, going forward. And I think it's, you know, certainly continued to influence how one thinks over the last 38 years of practice here. And running a firm and dealing with, you know, hundreds of individuals coming through the, the firm and, and everything else. But that cauldron of the Academy really, I think intensified those kinds of things. And you know, there some of those conversations were fun and over drinks. And other times more tense and and more charged. You know, because of our own emotions or our own opinions about where we were coming from. But the more reflective of us, like yourself and some others, I think, you know, really use that time to kind of, learn from others. And I put myself among those. You know, um, I don't think you can go there and not come back. Change perhaps, hopefully for the better.
Pat Lasch:It's true.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I'm, I'm particularly very intrigued and curious about this cauldron you're speaking of, of this like experience in Rome and, you know, being exposed to all these different artists and architects and people in this environment. I, I've participated in residencies myself and like, aware of like, what that sort of like unique environment can do. I'm curious about the outcomes of that experience. And you kind of alluded to like, or a change person or your practice. But I'm curious about like, what were the things that have, in retrospect you see like palpably, tangibly change about what you were making as artist and architect after this kind of experience?
James Timberlake:Pat?
Pat Lasch:Um, well, I think, I'd rather address it to, um, the people. Because when I think, when, when I'm thinking about reunion, I'm thinking of Tom, of course, who I ended up marrying. And, uh, and then
James Timberlake:Mm-hmm.
Pat Lasch:...uh, McManamen and, uh, you and Anne and Rich. I mean, they, that circle of those people. And that was like a classics professor, a Jesuit priest...
James Timberlake:Mm-hmm.
Pat Lasch:The son of an Episcopalian minister. You know, and Rich was just like a solid, you know, the husband of Anne, I mean, was just a, a solid good, midwestern guy.
James Timberlake:Vietnam vet.
Pat Lasch:Yeah, Vietnam vet.
James Timberlake:Just back from Vietnam basically, you know, 10 years before.
Pat Lasch:Yeah.
James Timberlake:Yeah.
Pat Lasch:So, um, the richness of dealing with all of those people, it has affected my life continuously. I mean, I'm still in touch with McManamen and I was so excited when you got into the Academy. It was, you know, I went yes! So, that's affected me. And, and I can't tell you specifically how it affected the work. But it did. I mean, Tom was a comparative literature professor. But he knew more about art history than any art historian I knew. So, I used to love going to the museums with him. Because I'd get anecdotes about a lot of, you know, paintings and sculptures and whatnot. So, that's what I'd like to say. That cauldron is still going on for me. And I have to get some of my questions in because I, I had two questions that we can go back to. But Jim, I, I hate having any kind of assistant in my studio. I've had it a few times. I can't stand it. And you're managing a firm with like, uh, what, a hundred people or more?
James Timberlake:Mm-hmm.
Pat Lasch:And I wanna know, that's one of my questions, how you deal with that. And then my second question is, when you discovered or started using this Smart Wrap, I mean, I think of Rome and all of those heavy, you know, stone buildings. And then, you know, thinking of you going into something so ethereal. And I wanted to know how that happened. What ignited that idea in your head?
James Timberlake:Yeah. Let me take on, work from the cauldron to, the first part of the question was, just reprise the first part of the question, then I'll get to the Smart Wrap piece.
Pat Lasch:Oh. Uh, the first one was how you manage a firm with, yeah. I mean, it's like, it's astonishing to me.
James Timberlake:The firm, yeah. Leaving the cauldron for a moment. You know, the, the whole notion of, all of these different people and backgrounds coming together, you know, in a kind of stew. And some of the interactions were literally stews, occasionally. And we all gravitated to people that we, you know, we wanted to spend more time with or pick their brains of or, you know, could accommodate our work with. I think there are some people that come out of that cauldron and they're not changed. And I think some of 'em, I don't want to name names or, or disciplines, but you know, some were so focused on an academic outcome. And obviously finishing a thesis or a doctoral degree or a, you know, PhD or, or a thesis of some sort that, some of the kind of human interaction I think probably is coming around the backside to them now, later in life than it was necessarily in the spirit of time. Whereas Rome, the Academy is a microcosm of Rome. And Rome is a, even though there's a certain isolation being all Americans at the time there, and being up on the hill, but Rome was, you know, this, this incredible 24 hour life that was very different than Philadelphia and very different from LA and very different from New York, in my opinion.
Pat Lasch:Yeah.
James Timberlake:And you had to engage that to really have an appreciation and a love for what people were doing that were a two to 3000 year old culture. And how they engage daily life and life together. And, and then I think that influence has begun to influence us more and more, even post pandemic. You know, in terms of enjoying life. Not just being all about work for 12 hours a day and then being exhausted and collapsing. But really learning how to engage that work-life experience, you know, throughout the, throughout the day. So, managing a firm is an evolution. Often, every firm begins small, so it's only one to two to three people at a time. And obviously those, some people stay and some people go. And it's, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a catchment of very, very different and particular skillsets and talents, personalities, influences, contexts. And some of those things stay out of the office and some of those things leak into the office. You know, they eventually become part and parcel of who we are. And it's, it's been an evolution, I would say, in terms of learning how to manage. We've been through eight recessions. Um, the firm's been successful through those eight recessions. We've built a practice of scale and of meaning. But also of accomplished projects. But also turned out people who have come through the firm who are talents in their own right and have gone on to have their own successful practices or careers even outside of the firm. I think that's the toughest part of it, is the coming and going. You get to a point with a staff, I think, where it's like an eight cylinder engine. You know, if you, if I can use a a, a car analogy here. You know, it just runs smoothly. You know, if, when it's in tune and it just, things happen and people do them without a lot of intervention and a lot of conversation. And things get done collaboratively, you know, without a lot of worry about intentionality or lack thereof. When things are slower, you know, there's much more focus on things like process and human interaction and the sensitivities of others. And it's just something you grow through. And, uh, you learn as a leader, you have to be able to take criticism and respond to that criticism and help others and have a sense of compassion and empathy. I'd like to think that that's one of my strengths, is a kind of empathetic and compassionate sort. So, it goes back to some of that sort of spirituality that you spoke to. Whereas some others here are, you know, are blinders on and they're, everything else is like noise. And you have to kind of bring them into a kind of conversation about, hey, wait a minute, there's something else going on here. That said, the other side of me that people know here, and you saw it Pat at the Academy, is I'm, I'm intense.
Pat Lasch:Oh, so am I.
James Timberlake:I'm a Scorpio. Yeah, I'm, I'm intense. I'm a Scorpio. I'm passionate about what I do. I'm passionate about the quality of work that I do. And probably sometimes more so than some of the other folks here. You know, like, hey, you know, maybe this is good enough, you know? But what was I looking for? Well, I was looking for this. You know, not for this. You know, and so how do you get there and do that in a, in a way, people aren't put off by your passion.
Pat Lasch:Right.
James Timberlake:And I've, I've had those trips over time. I haven't, you know, there've been a few regrets over the years, uh, you know, in, in terms of how I've handled certain things.
Pat Lasch:But it, it's not that I'm not self-reflective either. You know, and that comes from that kind of spirituality I think that you asked about. So, the last piece of the question was about Smart Wrap and how does one get from, you know, the kind of rock right of Rome in Italy and, and the construction of those kinds of, kinds of structures to something more ephemeral and transparent. And I think what that is, is both a, an analysis of what the tools of that architecture had at the time. And what our tools are now. But also what is needed of our architecture now that wasn't necessarily availed to the architects or the sculptors back then in making what they were making. So, and I think the bridge in all of that over time in the last 38 years is just simply more travel and more exposure to a more global community of architecture and, and sculpture and art. And realizing that there's more that wasn't being necessarily brought to architecture, you know, that we needed to explore and almost directly influenced, I think, some of this layering and ephemerality and transparency and, kind of gauziness, if you will, of, of some of the architecture, was all the scaffolding that we saw in Rome. But also then over in Europe over time over the last 25 years, of older buildings, rocks, stone buildings being renovated. But having this exterior scaffold go up and this gauze wrap, you know, which Christo by the way, you know, does to the Reichstag, you know, um, he does too, you know, and wraps other kinds of things. But this kind of layering becomes not only performance. But also performative. In the sense that outside layer of some of the things that we do is very much about trying to help manage the energy that's coming into the building. And making the building better and more useful over an energy profile over time. It, it's partly a reaction, Pat, I think, to seeing things in a certain way. And then saying, well, you know, by contrast we can do this. And that sets up a dialogue of simultaneity where simultaneous histories between this rock or this stone thing, or this brick thing and this glass thing that, that then have a conversation with one another. And it's interesting you bring this up because, one of our recent but early glass buildings was a, a museum edition up in Doylestown at the Michener Museum. And it's just a simple room. And the commission came to us during the Great Recession at the end of the Bush years in the beginning of the Obama years in 2008, 2009. And the museum had a very distinct idea of where the addition to that building should be placed and, and what its purpose was. And so we went to the interview and we almost never do this. We went to the interview and we said, there's only really one solution here. It was in the midst of a big, long garden that was highly undefined. And they wanted to stick this addition over in the corner someplace. And we said, look, if you put it in the middle of the garden and it's a glass pavilion, the garden goes through the building. But then eight feet away is, if there's a very tall glass wall that encloses this, this glass pavillion, eight feet away is this 25 year old stone, 19th century prison wall. Which the museum occupies a portion of. So, this was a, a 19th century, I don't think it was a Quaker prison at the time. It was just a 19th century Pennsylvania prison with these 25 foot high stone rubble walls and a head house that formed the beginnings of the museum. And then accretively. over time, they've made these additions that make this larger institutional structure. And this pavilion that we were asked to design, was to enhance the experience of all of that. And so at the dedication, one of the things that I said was, it was sort of interesting to me in a kind of Louis Khan, who's an architect, the the kind of Louis Kahn language of how a 19th century, 25 foot stone wall might have a dialogue with a 21st century, 24 foot high, glass wall that are only eight feet apart. And the monumentality of each. But that there's this cross historical conversation going on between these, this older structure and this new intervention. And I think that's the kind of intriguing outcome of some of the glassier, more gauzier, more ephemeral work that we do, is that, that there's a deeper meaning that can come from that, in that kind of, in that kind of engagement. A long-winded answer, but... Yeah. But I love the idea of this stonewall talking to the glass wall. And the glass wall talking in the stonewall.
James Timberlake:Yeah.
Pat Lasch:So...
James Timberlake:Yeah, it was very, I mean, it was very emotional for me that, that particular dedication. Because here was a commission that came unusually during the depths of a, of a recession at a time when we weren't winning any work. And we were bridging, you know, uh, we were managing the firm and, and modestly laid off only a few people that, but, then hired them back in order to keep them working during the recession. And this commission came and they were like, immediately and kind of profoundly engaged by the idea that we brought to them. And so, this became this lovely little project that was fairly easy to design and execute. You know, because of all the other turmoil that had been going on over here. All of a sudden this, this kind of almost easy project created such beauty and, and a relationship between the parts that, I think the museum is, you know, intensely happy about. They use it for gatherings. They've used it for, it gets great light. It's protected from South and West light. So, it gets a lot of natural daylight into it. And they can control that daylight. But they've had, you know, some sculpture shows in there of materials that are a little more inert. But they also have a Nakashima collection, for instance, at that museum. And paintings by Bucks County artists and collections from the, from the Mitchner historical collection, as well. So it's, it's a really interesting little museum.
Pat Lasch:It's not so far away for me to go see.
James Timberlake:Yeah. Yeah.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I mean, I think some of the things you're talking about with materials definitely speak to this to me. But the question I have kind of goes back to this theme of spirituality that came up early and keeps coming back around. Because one, it feels unique in that I feel like that idea of spirituality is kept out of like, art schools. And like, that concept, maybe people have to come into accepting post sort of education and like the conversations they're having there. And so I'm curious about how that idea of spirituality relates to things, maybe related to material, but maybe relate it to your own experience with your work of transcending. And like, the transcendent experience for you as the creator. But also for the experiencer of your work. The viewer, the, the participant in the work.
James Timberlake:Yeah. Pat, you, you should answer that first.
Pat Lasch:Um, well, you know, it was interesting, Richard Serra once said to me, art isn't about psychology.
James Timberlake:Hmm.
Pat Lasch:And art for me was very deeply about emotion, about...
James Timberlake:Mm-hmm.
Pat Lasch:...our experiences that we've had. And in art school, they do not teach that. But now when I'm looking at work now and analyzing work that was done many years ago, it had elements of spirituality, it had elements of emotion. And no one, especially the art historians, were not talking about it then. And they're more open to talking about it now. Because I guess of the younger generations, they're hip to the fact that Jesus, we're human beings. We're not machines.
James Timberlake:Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think somebody like Serra probably didn't want to admit though that Tilted Ark and the tactility of a corten steel plate that weighs tons, that he then also was attempting to levitate. You know, I mean, even at the MoMA show before our show of the cellophane house back in 2008, he was hanging these several ton sculpture plate forms, suspended from, levitating them, you know, basically. And I think that takes a certain emotionality. A certain spirituality. A certain, a certain bit of faith that he probably may not have wanted to admit, admit to. I think many of us all compartmentalize religion. And I think spirituality is different from religion in, in my opinion. I, I'm sure Pat probably agrees with that and, and that's...
Pat Lasch:Oh, boy do I.
James Timberlake:Yeah, so we can be highly spiritual. But we're not necessarily have to be religious. And my wife and I talk about that all the time too. Cuz she's, she too is a, I call her a failed Catholic . You know, she, cuz she, she had, you didn't have the experience that, that Pat had, but she, she saw some of the hypocrisy of the church. And so, you know, she set that other bit aside. The, the spirituality, I think some people are afraid to kind of admit to, at least publicly that they're a spirited being. You know, or that they're, they've got a spiritual underpinning. Because it too easily slides into the conversation about religiousity or religion. And I think most of us, I'd love to have this conversation, you know, further. Because I think if you leave all of that aside and you just focus in on the spirituality piece of it, it really, again, I go back to the use of the word ethic. There's an ethical, it's an ethical, foundational piece to us. And we all have the spirit in us. You know, when we die, you know, we talk about that at the commitment the ceremony to somebody being buried, their spirit, you know, their corpus is deceased. We, we're not any longer seen through this shell of, uh, a bag of bones and skin. But our spirit can still be alive. And it just, is it, we're transcendent at that particular point to something else.
Pat Lasch:That that's the Exquisite Corpse.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Thanks for tying it all back together, Pat.
James Timberlake:Yeah, totally. I mean, and it's just is something that obviously we all contribute to. I think some people, I don't know, I don't wanna make judgments. Uh uh and I shouldn't. But it's hard for some people to talk about this. I mean, I, I think. And how it threads through their work. I think of, um, Frank Stella, for instance, I don't know how much of the time you spent, if at all with Frank Stella when he was at the Academy as a resident. But, you know, on some of his walks, you know, he would go, he would be looking at a Caravaggio and be talking about the movement in, in that space. And the abstraction in it. And how he was looking at this very figurative painting but deriving abstraction from it. At that moment, he's setting aside the story that Caravaggio is painting and the kind of literalness of the painting to get to a kind of deeper meaning. But I certainly think that you can't approach a Caravaggio or a Tintoretto or some of the Italian painters that we were all, as artists and architects looking at. Or as art historians are looking at, without having some appreciation of the emotive underpinning that, that creates that work and all of that. Whereas I think the art historians in some ways, shut that out. It's the analytique of it all and its influences. And they're kind of setting aside the artist as executor for the appreciation of the product. It's like looking at architecture and saying, well, St. Peter's in Rome is this pile of stone and space and composition and all of that. But underneath it, Carlo Moderno and Michelangelo and Bernini and all of the people who had hands in that, in that work, are all adding their personal thread and threads to that tapestry. And I, I see that in Pat's work. You know, that, the tapestries that she was creating and in her work and the, and the threads that are pulled together, you know, every one of those things has intentionality. And that intentionality has that purpose. And that purpose is coming from that, that sense of spirit. You know, and that thread is one letter, or one word, or one sentence in a, in a narrative that she's composing. And so, that's her writing, her, that's, that's her music. You know, when we're there, we're that young, we're all seeing it, you know, kind of all neatly compartmentalized in a, in a, everybody's putting things in a box, you know. The cross pollination of all of that and reflection, I think, that's e every bit as much music or writing as Anne Tyler was doing, you know, as a writer or the musicians were doing, you know? Even though they might look at her work as a physical thing or my drawings as a physical thing and not necessarily see the music or the composition in it. You know what I mean?
Pat Lasch:Yeah. And I didn't mean to interrupt, but at the base of St. Peter's, there are 13 graves underneath that main altar.
James Timberlake:Yes.
Pat Lasch:Did you do that tour underneath?
James Timberlake:Yeah.
Pat Lasch:And yeah, and then they said, they thought it was St. Peter's Bones. But then they got lost during the excavations during World War II. And the, the crux of all of the beauty of that building, comes out of this profound belief in these apostles and disciples of Christ. And that spiritual connection for them, God was.
James Timberlake:Mm-hmm.
Pat Lasch:And so, I was always fascinated by that. That was, being a Catholic, you know, once a Catholic, always a Catholic. And I used to even make relics when I was in, a teenager.
James Timberlake:Mm-hmm.
Pat Lasch:I'm still making relics, Jim.
James Timberlake:Yeah. Well, I mean, we all are in some way. But you know, another one that you probably visited, which I love, and I've been back to many times. Every time I go back to Rome, I can't always get into the, the base, the foundation of St. Peter's is, is a tour that everybody must go, go see. And it's hard to do. But one that you can do every time you go back to Rome is San Clemente. Yes.
Pat Lasch:Yeah.
James Timberlake:I don't know if you remember San Clemente. But there are three church layers on top of one another. And you realize how important that is, how important that was to Christianity, or how important that is to any religion. It's like going to Jerusalem and, and going to, you know, the church on the rock or any of those kinds of things. It's like this rooting. This like drive a stake in the ground, you know, the font, the source, the moment, the place of meaning about this wellspring of all these other kinds of things happening. And I, I'm always fascinated by that. And architecture and art can't always have that meaning unless the artist or the architect can find ways to make those connections and those cross connectivities to life outside of ourselves and life, you know, that we're currently participating in. And either life beyond or life before. And that's one of the things that has always intrigued me about our renovation work. You know, the work at Yale or the work at Harvard, for instance, is, it's working within old buildings. But it's not just throwing the old building away. It's saying, where are the things that are foundational for this, this structure and this piece of architecture and the importance of it. And then what insertions are new that can enhance that experience and enhance that conversation about a building made, you know, 80 years ago or a hundred years ago. And what it says about itself now through the intervention of the new, of the new work. It's kind of intriguing to me. I don't know, Pat, if you're following this. You may not be because mostly in the architectural circles. But there's a New York architect who was hired to renovate the National Gallery in London by Robert Venturi and Denise Scott Brown. And it's, it was one of Bob and Denise's life's work. You know, they won this competition and they did the National Gallery extension. And now it's 35 years later or more, and it, there's a certain refresh that needs to happen. But the architect, who will go unnamed, is like really scraping out a lot of the Venturi work in the ground floor in the entrance. And really quite altering that experience. And the architectural community, the art historical community is quite up in arms about it because it's erasing things that people are gonna, eventually, reflect back upon having lost and realizing the meaning that has been, you know, kind of pulled out of a really significant work of architecture. It would be, it would be akin to taking St. Peter's in Rome and basically taking the ball of balisciano out and plastering overall the marble in the walls and flattening everything. And saying, well, by contrast to the exterior, this new, this new interior is of more purpose and greater meaning than 500 years of a creative, you know, uh, construction over time. And, and we all know that that can't be true. And so it's, it's a really important conversation that I think is going on in art and architecture, music, you know, and, and a lot of things about, it gets to that EDI, the inclu, inclusivity, diversity and inclusion that's going on, and equality about, how do we treat history? How do we treat the respective history? How do we treat it going forward? Do we just ignore this other stuff? Do we erase it? Do we, how do we engage it? And those were topics that Pat and I and others at the Academy were having about our work. And we didn't necessarily agree with one another at the time. But over time, 40 years later, I think we've all evolved to a place of understanding that those conversations all contributed to, you know?
Pat Lasch:Well, you know, Jim, it brings it back to, I'll, I'll bring it back from this grandiose thing, from a building, to my mother's crocheting.
James Timberlake:Hmm.
Pat Lasch:Or my grandmother's crocheting. And I see...
James Timberlake:Mm-hmm.
Pat Lasch:...women artists taking that and then incorporating it into their work. And I can, I feel like it's, um, harmful to do that. I wanna keep that original...
James Timberlake:Hmm.
Pat Lasch:...hand to thread energy. The only time I've done it, is when a piece was destroyed or almost gone so that I could take it and resurrect it. But I like to keep all of the things intact and have the respect for that work itself. And then I can use the pattern or something. And then transfer it into my own interpretation with paint and thread or crocheting. I mean, my stuff looks like it's thread and crocheting. But it's actually paint.
James Timberlake:Paint. Yeah. That's fascinating to me. It's a transformation of technology, which is really intriguing too.
Pat Lasch:Yeah, well, well it's like really, keeping the respect for what has come before us. And not trying to erase it. And not trying to, um, say my stuff is better than yours. It isn't.
James Timberlake:It's not a cancellation. Yeah,
Pat Lasch:Exactly. Exactly. And the women that did these kind of works, that they weren't getting, you know, I mean when think of the tapestries that were done, you know, in the Renaissance and... none of these women got acknowledged for what they did. They are incredible pieces of art.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:It does not make me happy to have to bring us towards the end. Cuz I...
Pat Lasch:Oh no.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:...I love hearing you guys speak. And clearly this is, uh, just as enjoyable for you two. But I do like that we came to this note of like, respecting history and how do you engage with that. Because it brings us to the always final question of the podcast, which relates to this 200 year institution that you both have been inducted into. Also, I think it's interesting, you've spent a lot of time talking about sort of being in conversation with other artists and scholars at the Academy in Rome. We're talking about the National Academy here, at different Academy where you're part of a collective of artists and architects. So, um, I'm probably gonna start with you, James, because you, um, we've heard from Pat. And you can absolutely add to this Pat. But this question about what you feel, um, about being a part of this collective of artists and architects.
James Timberlake:You know, it was very special for Steve and me to be Steve Kieran and me to be asked to become part of that community. When you're younger, when you're full of yourself, you know, your world is unto yourself. And you're, you're very much, even though you may be extroverted, you know, you're very much introverted about the work that you're trying to do and what you're trying to accomplish as you're trying to build an ouvre of work, a kind of portfolio. And I think as we age, as we become more reflective, as we become more engaged, we realized that there are larger communities outside of ourself that we're, that we're a part of. And that first, as I said, instance of that was that the American Academy. But the full circle of that, I think, and the richer piece of that, in my opinion, because it crosses across so many generations, is the National Academy. And this is something that I brought up when I was working as part of a committee on the strategic plan. You know, when, when we were first asked to be part, you know, the strategic planning was going on was, how to have these kinds of conversations. They're enrichening and how to share them with others. And I'm, I'm just grateful for these podcasts. Because I think they're really important to get these reflections in an accessible place that people can have an appreciation of. Because too often we're so busy about our own things going on in our, in our daily lives, in our daily work that we forget to share. And I think the National Academy of Design is really about looking outside of itself and encouraging, certainly the current artists and architects, you know, in that Academy to be cooperative and collaborative in, in conversation and sh and sharing outside and mentoring outside of itself.
Pat Lasch:Yeah. I, Jim, I'm gonna be very curious as to who you're gonna choose to do your...
James Timberlake:oh, do I get to do that?
Pat Lasch:Yes.
James Timberlake:Oh gosh.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:You do. I'm so glad you bring that up, Pat, because we are, we are going to reach out to you. Maybe not tomorrow, but soon-ish, we'll reach out to you and you'll have a chance to think about who you want to have on the podcast.
James Timberlake:Oh, that's great. Well, I would do what Pat did, I think. Is, you know, there are lots of architects I could talk to. But I think, you know, my, my thinking would be to reach out to somebody else who paints their sculpts or, or otherwise, you know, does something a little differently than what I do. You know, to just broaden the conversation. I think that's a, it's a way of really enrichening this. And...
Adrienne Elise Tarver:We love that. We're all for that.
James Timberlake:Yeah. Yeah. So I'll have to give that some thought.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah. You don't have to have an answer now. But I'm glad that, Pat, you brought that up. Because I think it's, um, it's exciting to see the different relationship threads revealed and how people approach that question of who they wanna speak to. So...
James Timberlake:It's also paying it forward. And I think that's what Pat has generously done. Is try to pay forward, obviously the conversations that she's had or she's led to bring in a different perspective. And one that she's somewhat familiar with. But, but also one that she wanted to hear from. And I, I'd, I'd want to do the same thing. I'd want to think about how to pay that, pay that ahead.
Pat Lasch:Yeah. And I, I just feel very honored to have had this conversation with you, Jim. Really. I, I really do. So...
James Timberlake:Oh, oh. Same Pat.
Pat Lasch:Jim, thanks so much. It's a pleasure seeing you again. And big hug for you too. Six...six-foot-four.
James Timberlake:It's great seeing you. A big virtual hug and, uh, and we have to have that drink. Uh, and it really would. And we first reprise this back in 19 when we first got inducted. But it's been, all of a sudden we've had this...
Pat Lasch:Pandemic.
James Timberlake:...full intervention in place. Yeah.
Pat Lasch:I know and...
James Timberlake:It's crazy.
Pat Lasch:...I'll, I'll get the Fernet-Branca because that'll remind me of McManamon.. James Timberlake: Yeah. I'll probably have the Grappa. Pat Lasch: Okay. Well, have Grappa and Fernet-Branca.
James Timberlake:Very good.
Pat Lasch:Tante belle cose.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Grazie mille to both of you for participating.
Pat Lasch:Thank you.
James Timberlake:Yeah, thank you.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:You are listening to Exquisite Corpse. Wow. I love that. I mean, I, I feel like you can never really predict where these conversations go.
Anjelic Owens:Yes, definitely. I, I was not expecting them to, to hit on spirituality, honestly.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah. I feel like there's this beautiful thing that happens and like we hoped it would, where we don't really have an agenda for these conversations. We don't tell them what to talk about. We just put them together in a space and let them, let them go where they want.
Anjelic Owens:Mm-hmm.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And we can never, I feel like every time, we never actually could predict what's gonna come out of it.
Anjelic Owens:Exactly. And I think that's the best strategy to go about it. And just based off of those relationships and their comfort with each other, the conversation will like flow over time.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Totally. I mean, if Pat and James hadn't known each other for, I mean, really decades, I don't think they would've so immediately dove into such deep topics.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah. Honestly, I, I did re appreciate that they were able to get to that space. And, and really dive into their own perspectives on spirituality. Because I don't really think it's talked about too often in the art world.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah. I mean, I think about this as like the things that come up in the classroom or that I feel comfortable bringing into a classroom. And like you don't go there as a teacher because it's a controversial, sensitive...
Anjelic Owens:Yeah.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:...topic and you don't really know, if a student's not bringing it up about their own work or their own practice or what's important to them, it just doesn't feel appropriate to go there. But it's really interesting when you hear people forefront that as a part of their history, as a part of the things they're thinking about. So, I really was curious about that. Like what do you think about that in terms of like, people revealing this thing as a part of the identity that you might not know about them? Like they, they can choose to hide that if they don't wanna talk about it.
Anjelic Owens:I mean, I, I definitely think that it could be more subconscious and you don't really think about how your spirituality can affect how you make work or engage with your practice. And so I, I really did appreciate that, especially for James, that he separated being religious versus being spiritual. Cuz I think that they both have different connotations, right?
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah, absolutely.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah. Like with him talking about spirituality, it puts less pressure I think. Cuz it's, it's more of like something that is a part of you. But it's not too serious, if that makes sense.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Well, and I think, I think most of the controversies and issues around like, this area are around like the established institutions of religion. And so especially, you know, Pat goes to really sensitive place. And she did this in the last conversation where she talks about her abuse
Anjelic Owens:Yeah.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:From, you know, members of the Catholic church. And that's something that you can, if you are approaching these as different things, talk about individually. And the idea of what's happening within that institution is not necessarily the same conversation about how spirituality is impacting your practice.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:So, I liked that they made those definitions.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah. I'm glad you brought up the institution of church. Specifically, like the Catholic church. Do you feel like their time at Rome probably influenced their ability to, to talk about these type of topics?
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I mean, I don't know. But I do think there might be something to that in that, I spent quite a bit of time in Italy and some time in Rome and it's, all of Italy is really influenced by the church. Specifically the Catholic church. The, like, a lot of it was built with money and interests of the church. And so these buildings that James went around drawing are often religious or religiously influenced buildings. And there's a conversation about the church, spirituality, religion in all of these elements. And, and when you're surrounded by that, I can't imagine it's not entering into your daily conversation or at least thoughts. So I wonder, yeah. Did that start back in their time in Rome? Is that why they can so easily jump to talking about his history as a pastor's kid and spirituality influencing their work?
Anjelic Owens:When they were talking about their time at Rome, it was interesting how they also connected to how they approached their residency. And they each had different strategies. Like with Pat, she again, like had more, not traditional. But how artists engaged in the studio versus how James was more of like a researcher and would take images and collect postcards. But they both approached it in, in very different ways.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:100%. I thought it was cute that she was like, I just didn't know that you were making work. Like I, that's how you like go about your practice. I mean, in fun fact, we just got James and his partner's architectural partner, Steven Kieran, they've just donated their diploma work to the academy.
Anjelic Owens:Mm-hmm.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And it happens to be, this is really rare that we get diploma work from early in, especially in architect's career. They've donated work from their time in Rome. And so we actually, at the same time we're having this conversation with him and Pat about their time in Rome. We have diploma works, um, of drawings that Steven and James made during their time in Rome. That's a pretty incredible crossover.
Anjelic Owens:That is so amazing. And I honestly loved seeing their work, their diploma work. Make sure to check it out. And it also, like James spoke about that time, how it had an impact on his practice in his architectural firm. And those same strategies that he developed carried through to his practice in the current moment.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Absolutely. It's like respecting the history of a place. And like if you've been to Rome, there's ruins everywhere. They will start building and they kind of gloss over something cuz they're protecting a ruin. And so there's this interaction between history and present day and thinking about the future. And like, so he talked about that museum edition that he did at the Missioner Art Museum in Doylestown, Pennsylvania. And really thinking about not a racing history, but creating a bridge.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:So, that you're in within the contemporary time still understanding and looking back at the influence of history.
Anjelic Owens:I think that's a really, really interesting framework to look at. And also kind of relates to us at the National Academy and how we're thinking about ourselves as an almost 200 year old institution and how we're trying to bridge that gap. You know, and how we engage with the art world today.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I mean, absolutely. I mean, I couldn't ask for a better kind of metaphor from his practice as sort of how we're thinking about really bringing this institution into the present day and into the future. So, what an incredible episode. I'm so excited, um, to have gotten to talk to Pat again and to learn more about James. Especially like as we're seeing this incredible work that's entering our own collection. Check it out on our website, national academy.org. Stay tuned for season four coming in the spring. In the meantime, if you haven't listened to past episodes, go back and listen to seasons one, two, and the rest of season three. Please give us, uh, a like. Share with your friends. Follow us. Um, give us a, a high rating cuz we know you love it. And we're really looking forward to coming back for season four. Thank you for listening to Exquisite Corpse from the National Academy of Design. We're a 5 0 1 nonprofit organization dedicated to promoting art and architecture. And we rely on your support to make programs like this possible. To learn more and to donate, visit National Academy.org. This conversation was recorded on September 28th, 2022. Exquisite Corpse is written and produced by Adrienne Elise Tarver and Anjelic Owens, and co-produced mixed and edited by Mike Clemow and Wade Strange at SeeThrough Sound.
