Mary Miss NA + Jeanne Gang NA

In the third episode of season three, previous guest, Mary Miss, speaks with architect, Jeanne Gang. In sharing their mutual admiration for each other’s practices, their conversation touched on social-ecological frameworks, the female gaze, and the nuances of involving community in their projects. 

Throughout their conversation, the natural parallels between art and architecture begin to emerge. With both practices rooted in public environments, they exchange different approaches to sustained engagement with community members as co-creators. Mary shares her experiences working on the temporary memorial at Ground Zero, a process she describes as “turning voyeurs into mourners”. Jeanne speaks on her youth leadership program in collaboration with SCAPE for their project at Tom Lee park in Memphis, TN. Together they share a collaborative passion for addressing complex societal issues through their practices.

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Transcript

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 0:09

Hello, I'm Adrian Elise Tarver, the host of the National Academy Podcast.

Anjelic Owens: 0:14

Wait, wait, wait, Adrienne,

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 0:15

oh, what?

Anjelic Owens: 0:16

Co-host. Co-host.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 0:17

Oh, okay. You're right. I am the co-host of the National Academy Podcast, Exquisite Corpse, and I'm joined by...

Anjelic Owens: 0:25

Anjelic Owens.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 0:28

This podcast is a series of conversations between artists and architects who've been elected by their peers to the National Academy of Design for their extraordinary contributions to art and culture in America. These are the National Academicians. And they're at the core of the oldest artist front organization in the United States. This is Exquisite Corpse. Welcome back to the podcast everyone. We're really excited about this episode with a returning guest, Mary Miss, who we spoke to on season two, episode four when she spoke with architect Michael Maltzan. This time she's speaking with another architect, Jeannie Gang. But before we get into it, let's do our Historical Acknowledgement.

Natalia Viera Salgado: 1:15

Hi, my name is Natalia Viera Salgado and I'm the Associate Curator at the National Academy of Design. The National Academy of Design was initiated by artists and architects to fill a void in the American artistic landscape of the 19th century. But we recognize our history has excluded many communities and cultures whose lineages and practices must be included in this country's art, historical canon. Indigenous peoples, people of color, queer and non-binary individuals, and people with disabilities. We are committed to a process of dismantling the ongoing legacies of settler colonialism and white supremacy. We are excited to move forward and have conversations that reflect the important questions and issues of today. We are the National Academy of Design and you are listening to Exquisite Corpse.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 2:07

So I'm excited that you know this is our third episode of the season. But this is our second continuation of the Exquisite Corpse. The second fold in the Exquisite Corpse, as we came to before. Not mixing our metaphors anymore. So, we have Mary Miss rejoining us, who, she is an artist who has chosen once again to speak to an architect. And of course, last time in season two, an architect chose her to speak to. So, it's this lovely back and forth. This recognition of the overlap and the crossover in thinking between these two industries that...

Anjelic Owens: 2:48

Mm-hmm.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 2:49

...are joined under the National Academy of Design in our, uh, our history and our mission.

Anjelic Owens: 2:54

Exactly. It is really special to see, again, just to have the podcast to highlight this natural relationship. And is again, unique to the National Academy.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 3:04

Yeah. There's this whole history that we have as an organization, being almost 200 years old, that really encompasses the changing conceptions of these industries, of the definitions of what people do.

Anjelic Owens: 3:17

Mm-hmm.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 3:17

And so we kind of get to see these unique connections. Because a lot of places aren't necessarily trying to draw these connections. There are so many artists who are looking at architecture and who are considering space and structures. Especially, artists working in public art.

Anjelic Owens: 3:34

Yeah. That is really true. Dang, that also makes me think of the Lisa Hoke and Elana Herzog conversation with like installation artists and operating in space in different environments.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 3:45

Absolutely.

Anjelic Owens: 3:45

I really loved from the Michael Maltzan and Mary Miss combo, just seeing how they both operate as problem solvers. And you know, how they really think about how can we exist in society and find new ways of engaging with our environment, you know?

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 4:00

Yeah, absolutely. And, and to understand through Michael talking about his being influenced by Mary, that she's an artist that is introduced to architects in school that...

Anjelic Owens: 4:11

Mm-hmm

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 4:11

...this relationship is, maybe it's kind of unique to an institution to have these, like groups of people together. But out in the world and how people are influenced and inspired, this is happening already. Architects are looking at artists and, and vice versa.

Anjelic Owens: 4:25

I definitely feel like, that's definitely a, not a newer, but like, it's more common now to think from an intersectional lens as an artist, as a thinker, you know? Like, trying new strategies to engage with concepts and like, having more of a collaborative mindset, you know?

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 4:42

Absolutely. I mean, I, I think about that a lot as a teacher of, I might be teaching a painting class. But I say my definition of painting is very broad.

Anjelic Owens: 4:51

Mm.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 4:52

And if somebody comes in there with a real interest in architecture, then like, let's start making some sculptural work and call it painting. Let's see how those things overlap.

Anjelic Owens: 4:59

I love it. That's awesome.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 5:02

So this time Mary Miss got to select who she wanted to speak with. And she picked another architect, Jeanne Gang, who has this incredible career. Very accomplished.

Anjelic Owens: 5:14

Yes, extremely. Big impressive. Like, it's kind of oc. Like what? I, when I did my little research, I saw that if you look up the tallest buildings designed by women, uh, Jeanne Gang designed the top two.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 5:29

That's incredible. I mean, there's something really incredible about the range of projects she's done. She's based kind of all over the world. Paris...

Anjelic Owens: 5:38

mm-hmm.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 5:38

...San Francisco, Chicago, New York. And has made really incredible iconic buildings in all of these places.

Anjelic Owens: 5:46

Exactly. It's pretty amazing.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 5:48

I mean, I feel like I, if I were an architect, that's the kind of career I would like to design. I wanna, I wanna be based in those cities. I wanna design buildings in those cities.

Anjelic Owens: 5:56

Definitely.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 5:57

And I think there's, you know, this crossover of course, between how artists who work in public space think about how the audience, how the public engages with their work and with the environment. And an architect is always concerned with how somebody enters their space and engages with it. But also needing to take into consideration how the building interacts and engages with the environment around it. So, I'm really excited to see where this goes. Um, Mary, as we have talked to before, we know that she is the founder and artistic director of City as a Living Laboratory, which is a nonprofit that she started and works with all sorts of environmentalists and scientists and artists in order to think about sustainability...

Anjelic Owens: 6:34

mm-hmm.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 6:35

...and Ecology. She's been working on a project, a long term project called Watermarks in the City of Milwaukee. She has gotten, you know, numerous awards and grants. Had exhibitions around the country and the world, including the Harvard University Art Museum, the Institute of Contemporary Art in London...

Anjelic Owens: 6:53

mm-hmm., Adrienne Elise Tarver: ...the She has been recognized and awarded by the Guggenheim, Guggenheim Fellowship, uh, Urban Land Institute's Global Award for Excellence and the 2017 Bedrock of New York City Award. Wow.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 7:06

And Jeannie Gang, who is the founding principal and partner of Studio Gang, which honestly I think is like the coolest name for

Anjelic Owens: 7:13

Exactly.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 7:14

...a firm, Studio Gang. Um, which is headquartered in Chicago. But as we said, she has sort of, uh, outposts in all different parts of the country and the world. She's designed buildings like the Chicago River Boathouses, Writers Theater, Arcus Center for Social Justice Leadership, uh, St. Regis Chicago, so many amazing buildings. Again, the two tallest buildings designed by a woman. Incredible. She's a MacArthur fellow, um, and a professor in practice at the Harvard Graduate School of Design. And she was honored with the Cooper Hewitt National Design Award and Architecture. And she was named one of the most influential people in the world by Time Magazine. So let's jump into it.

Mary Miss: 7:53

This is Mary Miss. I'm an artist and I'm really looking forward to having a chance to talk with Jeanie Gang.

Jeanne Gang: 8:00

I, I'm Jeanie Gang and I'm an architect. And I practice mostly out of Chicago and New York and San Francisco and Paris. And I'm here in New York today. I'm looking forward to chatting with Mary.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 8:12

Welcome to you both. Thank you for joining. I wanna start, as I usually do, by, to illuminate a little bit, um, Mary has joined us before. She spoke with architect Michael Maltzan. And the concept of the podcast, called Exquisite Corpse, is that it's this continual chain where, uh, National Academicians sort of continue the creative conversation. And they can pick another person. So, um, I was really excited to see that, Mary, you selected another architect to speak with. So we're continuing this interdiscipline dialogue. Um, so Mary, I'm curious why you selected Jeanne for your next conversation on the podcast.

Mary Miss: 8:52

I have to say that, uh, Jeanne, your work has been so interesting to me for years. And this is a rather formal way of carrying on a conversation. But when asked who I would like to speak with, I looked at the list and your, your name popped out at me right away. We had a chance to meet in Chicago after a panel we were both on. And went back to your office, uh, for a little while. And it was such a nice experience because, uh, you've got a beautiful office. I like the building. The feeling of it. But you were having a kind of book club discussion about, uh, Evicted, the book about rent instability, rental housing instability in Milwaukee, a city where I've been working quite a bit. And it was so interesting to me that this was what was happening in the studio. And I guess one of the things I'm curious about is this culture of your studio. And how you, how you make time. I mean, obviously you guys are really busy. So how do you fit this kind of thing in?

Jeanne Gang: 10:06

I'm so glad you remember that, that moment. And you know, the book club is something that we do pretty often in the studio just to, a lot of times it has to do with issues that come up from projects that we're either engaging in or that we are considering. And to try to think through the approach through literature, through writing, through, you know, documentaries. And for each project we keep a bibliography of these different modes of thinking. And then, because architecture projects, probably like your art projects do, some of 'em last five years. Most of 'em last five years, some last longer. So, new people come into the studio and they can kind of get up to speed with the intellectual approach to each of the projects. And so that's, that's kind of the reason for it. And it's a wonderful way of connecting with studio members also, not, not just on, um, the work at hand. But bigger ideas. So yeah, we do that often, regularly. And it is something that takes time. And I think I find that my studio works better when people know and trust each other. And building that trust, we have to put time into it. And, and um, engage with each other in different ways. So, that's one of the things that we do. But it's also contributing to the work as well. So, I think we use the building there in Chicago that you visited, um, In a bunch of different ways. Another one of those things that we do is called a Bio Blitz. And that's, that's when we, we started that experimental roof garden with trying to get as many native species as possible, regional species, on onto the rooftop, including trees. And, um, every year we work with scientists from the field museum and other experts in insects and bugs and lichen to, um, to come together with our studio and also neighboring kids and neighbor owners of buildings nearby. And we literally count how many species we find in a 24 hour period. And that's one of my favorite activities to do with people because it's like, um, it really emphasizes the relationships between us and then us and our environment. And that we build relationships through that study of the environment. And I know I've always been interested in your work, Mary, because of that same kind of approach of engagement. And so it, it'd be great to hear like how you're working in Milwaukee or some of the activities that you do that helps facilitate those, those fluid interactions.

Mary Miss: 12:46

Well, this process of engagement has been the most curious thing to me my whole career. How to really bring people in. And I used to do it in things that I would have built that put you in a very different physical situation. Like, uh, sitting in a slot in the water so you're looking out at eye level with the water. Or walking under the skin of the earth in an underground structure. Trying to put you in into a different place. And that's one kind of engagement. And another kind, I found, after 9/11 and being close to the World Trade Center site. My studio, uh, and I, we started trying to think about how people could come to that place and be engaged in a way as mourners and not as voyers. And we came up with this idea of asking them to bring flowers to the site. And we made these receptacles so that the site could be surrounded by flowers the whole time. And in Milwaukee, We do these walks as part of the engagement of neighborhoods. But the question continues to be, how do you really get a participation? You know, you can take people on a walk and tell them about things. But how do you make everyone on that walk, how do you activate them? So I, I, I think that, anything, you know, we're always trying to find new ways of activating people and places. And one of the things we're doing, we have this National Science Foundation grant now in Milwaukee, and we have a community university working group that's getting together and trying to look at all the parts of our project there. Which is a very complex urban scale project about water. But we're trying to use this group to analyze, to study, to experience and comment upon all the parts of the project. And try and find out the best way of doing it. Uh, whatever that particular part is. And we hope to have, uh, by the end of this three year process, a model for other cities to be able to do urban scale projects...

Jeanne Gang: 15:21

mm-hmm.

Mary Miss: 15:21

...that address environmental issues. So that's kind of, we are going, trying to come up with processes that address these issues.

Jeanne Gang: 15:32

It sounds like it's evolved from this engagement, meaning engaging with the work, and then therefore engaging with the environment, to one that's more like also about the interaction between the people. And I think that's really where we, in our architecture education, we just never really learned that as a skill or a tool to use. Maybe it's just the nature of the academic world. But pretty quickly, my first projects were community centers all around in Chicago, different neighborhoods. And the neighborhoods are very different. And so it just really required, like talking to people, asking them about what they do? What they, what they like? You know, what makes them dream? What uh, what are some of the problems? And there were small projects, but really helped me to understand the mosaic of Chicago neighborhoods. But also that every project is, I think it as a community center in a certain way, even if it's a project about the environment, the success of projects like that depend on people being involved in the process. Being part of it, being co-creators, being, um, advocates. And those things that are very important for environmental change, renewal, that can only come from, like, it can't come top down. No, it really can't. So I always find that in, with every project, it's, it's much more successful when community members, you know, and leaders and communities to understand and become part of the process. Just, you know, just listening to what they have to say is the very beginning step, I think.

Mary Miss: 17:14

Well, I, I think it's so complicated. How do you get a true participation? You know, it's like you can't just go in and ask people what they would like to see or what they would want. But how do you engage in a conversation where you get to learn

Jeanne Gang: 17:33

Mm-hmm.

Mary Miss: 17:33

What these experts of their place know about. How do you take that in? How do you, as you say, make this, uh, a conversation that's with equal footing.

Jeanne Gang: 17:45

Mm-hmm.

Mary Miss: 17:46

And I'd say we are still trying to find the best ways of doing this. And I guess one thing I think about a lot, and I wonder if you've considered this, especially with this current project that we're doing, but also the work in New York. You can have that engagement, that immediate engagement. But we know that change doesn't happen quickly.

Jeanne Gang: 18:14

Mm-hmm.

Mary Miss: 18:14

It takes time. It's a process. And how do you keep the process of engagement going beyond a building itself or a place itself that's created? I really enjoyed when it was first written about seeing the building in Kalamazoo, the Justice Center, I think it's called. I don't know, could you talk about that and maybe how you see something being maintained over time?

Jeanne Gang: 18:44

Yeah, I think, I think two parts that issue you mentioned, like what are the techniques, I guess? What, how do you get the engagement that's really real in that area? We keep the same as you. Keep experimenting with different ways and work with different partners. And, and I find that, you know, in all the work that we do, some is much more civic and public and some is more private. But every time you put a building in a place, you know it's interacting with that place and it affects more people than just the one who's owning it. So, we try to help the owners, whether it's public entity or private entity or organization, like define on this kind of spectrum of engagement where they feel comfortable and where they wanna try to go, you know, from the least engaging is, you know, like informing people. Than toward more consultation. And then finally like at the other end of spectrum, empowering people. So there's like, that aspect of like, you, it's not like we're doing it ourselves. We need to do it together with our, the owners of the buildings. With colleagues and people that we're working with. And then we've tried some different things. One was really interesting in Memphis where we were working there with, um, the city of Memphis and the parks. And they helped us organize a youth design leadership group with youth from the area to try to imagine what people might want to see on their lakefront, or on the riverfront. Sorry. For, um, the Mississippi River where we're doing a new, a very big park. Tom Lee Park. It was a former Army corps, just filled area for protection, shore protection. And trying to bring it to life with activities and living things. So, we were working together with Scape, the landscape architects. We did this youth design leadership group to help pull out ideas. And what came out of it was, students, they were also getting a chance to look at what is it to design on an urban scale. They, we did some workshops with them. And one of the things that came out was they wanted places to play. To have fun. To do activities. But those things, of course, already exist in different neighborhoods. But this riverfront area is almost like the main stage. It, it was like, you can go there to have a musical performance and it will be like, more seen. So it, that is kind of like what we identified with them as the importance of the project for them. So, maybe the activities are the same. Like, being able to play basketball. Or being able to do a dance course. But taking it to the riverfront was like putting it on this bigger stage. So, that's how it kind of informed how we were designing it. So, that was a really fun way to engage with the community. And then, to your other point, I mean, it's so true, like how do we go back and find out how these things are working over. It's the same with any work. The buildings that you do, it's very hard. They just keep, you know, there's more and more of them and it's hard to go back and back and back. Even though it really, we would learn so much from doing that. And, and doing the, like, post occupancy. But there should be like a post occupancy for like how people are staying engaged, as well. So I don't know the answer to that. I, I don't have even a solution. We, we do interviews with people going back to find out how they're using it. We go back and photograph projects to see how they're being used. And, and in different ways than you never, things that you would never have expected. And that's when I feel like it's a success. If people are like adopting it as their own. But these behaviors and practices, like stewardship, for example, for an environment, um, those are things that, you hope that it continues. And if people are involved in the beginning, maybe it's a little bit like Exquisite Corpse. What we're doing right now. It's just, it's handed off and it, it continues through people.

Mary Miss: 22:46

You know, Jeanne, I have to say that I, I've always been kind of mystified where you came from or where your work came from. Because years ago SOM used to gather a few people together to look at their projects of the past few years. And I was on one of these juries. Uh, that was really nice because we were meeting in the Maison Louis Carré in, outside of Paris. And, uh, looking at all these buildings that SOM had done, mostly towers. And I kind of felt like a fish out of water, you know? Being there looking at these towers. But I kept thinking, and said, why can't there be buildings that are designed, not just for their looks, but how they can, they talk to the world in some way? You know, Can't the environment be reflected? And so then, you know, years later, lo and behold, here's this person who does this thing. And I just have found your work to be, you know, I'm just like somebody on the sideline of architecture. I've been interested over the years. And it was such a fresh thing to be able to see the way you were working. That's why I've kind of been following you around trying to talk to you or meet you whenever I could. Because it was just, I didn't see other architects thinking this way. And I'm going to ask a question that I, I never know what to say when people ask me. But how do you relate this to your experience, uh, as an architect and as a woman taking the approach that you, that you take?

Jeanne Gang: 24:33

Well, first I'm flattered that you have been watching my career. I, I wanna tell you that, Mary Miss, your work was something that we spoke about when I was in graduate school. Like all the things you were doing in New York and connecting to the environment. And it was very inspirational for me. And I think, I come from like a family of four girls. And, um, so I kind of didn't even realize there was any, you know, difference in how, you just approach things the way you do. And all four of us are very different in our interests. And there were no barriers there. Or gender kind of roles, I guess like in a family like that. You're just sisters and that's it. And so maybe that gave me a pretty good foundation to pursue the things I was interested in. But I was always really interested in nature. And like, had a nature guru as a, as a kid growing up that I went on hikes with to learn about everything. Trees, insects, all the, the connections. And I also really like to build things like treehouses and forts and ice caves. Growing up in the Midwest, it was very, you know, cold. And there would be winters with lots of snow. So you could like carve out spaces in there. So those are just, I guess, kind of innate, both of those things, both innate things of just who I am. And then ultimately, I think it's, it's about getting those things that you are together and being able to use your medium, in my case architecture, to express and to engage with the world around you in the way that you want. So, I think a male architect could adopt in the things that I'm interested in, as well. I don't think it's necessarily gender related. So, I think it could happen. And I don't know why it didn't before. You know, I don't know why it wasn't, It was just a different way of working, I think. So, I always see these things as interconnected. How our practice and buildings, and not just the building itself, but how it works with the environment around it. Everything is connected. And that's what I learned from ecology, you know? Ecology is about, it's not the thing. It's not the species on its own. It's about the relationships between the different species and their environment. So I think as, as an architect, we have a chance to, you know, trigger different behaviors or set up different, um, environments that help people behave in a way that's more positive and connected. I really, I think that's the superpower of what architecture can do. And I don't, I don't think I really have solved it yet. Or, you know, but that's what I'm interested in. And I think we share that. I mean, that is clearly there in your work, as well. I don't know, do you think it is, um, gender related?

Mary Miss: 27:30

Um, I, I do. I do because it's so different from the way others were working. This attention to the people using the structures. The connection with the natural environment. I mean, talking about the villa outside of Paris. That's this amazing, you know, the slope of the roof and then the slope of the land in front of it. It's like this amazing connection. So, they were wonderful examples of, you know, Alto being a prime, you know, example of somebody who's looking at the natural world and...

Jeanne Gang: 28:08

mm-hmm.

Mary Miss: 28:09

...reflecting that. But I guess maybe I draw comparisons to my own work. And I did start out from a very strong feminist position. Because I became of age as a young artist in New York in the seventies when we were redefining what art could be and who could, uh, be an artist. And it really meant, uh, to me being able to make different kinds of experiences possible. Make places that reflected my own experience in the world or more different kinds of experiences in the world. I know that one of the things that I've reflected on in recent years is, you know, if people, I think most often talked about feminist artists in terms of a certain imagery, that never really made sense to me. I felt that there were many different ways that women were redefining what it meant to be an artist. And for me, it was a lot about how you move through a work. Not that it had a particular imagery, but that, uh, what kind of engagement you were able to create. How you would move through the work. And that movement became a key element of, from the earliest work to the latest. So, I don't know, as I look around, I come across things every once in a while that I feel I can relate to more strongly than, than other things. So I guess. I'm drawing that comparison.

Jeanne Gang: 29:59

One of the things that, the advantages of coming at a profession that you're, you know, not the center of is, you have this, and this is a feminist perspective, I guess. Is like, you have this ability to be on the margins of it. And to critique it from this position that you're in. And I think that's what a lot of the feminist artwork that works were doing and the feminist artists themselves. And I think that allowed me the freedom to also just not follow into the same pattern, I guess, you know? So I always saw it. As a strength. As a, a way of seeing the world that you are, you know, you can look at it and analyze it. But then you're in this place where you can reach different territories as well. So that is pretty exciting. And I think that there's this, also this aspect of process that is interesting. Which maybe is from a feminist perspective. But things come to be through processes. How you make and the steps that you go through, or you know, the processes of what happens in the world when you're putting a piece in it and how people interact with it and what happens afterwards. Those are like process questions that I think are really interesting as, they can be drivers, also. And that I don't see that too much. Or when I was just, uh, starting out my practice, not a lot about process. I mean, it was more about image. That's true. Um, and, you know, the image of a building is very important. It's what people see. It has to be compelling and, but I trust in the process that it will get there without super imposing a certain sameness to all of the work. Although I do think in the work, our work, like there's a clear sensibility that comes through as a visual. But it wouldn't be like the same formal tropes every, every time on every project.

Mary Miss: 31:58

Well, I, I think one of the things that's been, just wonderful to me is to see how successful you've been. And how many things you're getting to build. I can say that, as a woman in the public realm over these past number of decades, it was not always so easy to have a place at the table. And I just really admire the fact that you've been able to really have this wonderful presence. But another thing I wanted to ask you about, I know that architects collaborate all the time. Artists do. But I started out collaborating with architects more often or landscape architects. And then at a certain point, as I got more concerned about the world and our state of the world, I ended up working with scientists quite often. And I've just had some wonderful relationships. There is someone, uh, who I've, an ecologist who have been having ongoing conversations with over the past few years. And he's really helped shape my view of the world in, you know, important ways. And I wonder if there is a particular set of conversations you've had with someone in an ongoing way that have been important to you in, in another field.

Jeanne Gang: 33:29

I was thinking about those ongoing relationships with people in science. That's really hallmark for, for me too over my career. Whether it's ecologists or physicists, people in all different fields. Luckily, being in a, in a place like Chicago or New York, you have access to these incredible brains. And it's just nice to have these conversations. You find more and more that people on the science side are more willing to work with artists and architects now than before when it was more divided. Like, you were either humanities or you were sciences. And I think we gotta come together. I mean, that, that is the key. So yeah, that was also very different 20 years ago than, than it is today. There's more receptiveness of having these conversations. And they're so fruitful, I've found as well. On certain projects, there's like, a maybe it's an issue in physics or something that I can't get my head around. And I just know I can reach out to my colleagues and, and have these conversations. So, but ecology, I think as your colleague, my Steve Applebaum, who's, um, an amazing ecologist who's, we've worked together over the years. And just the reading of a site for him is completely different than, , you know, and it, and it just, it gives you this insight that you can really work with.

Mary Miss: 34:58

Well, I think, uh, one of the things that's been interesting for me is to see, uh, parallel interests. I know that in the late nineties, I was trying to do a, a project in Milwaukee on a river walk. And the thing that I really wanted to do was to show the relationship between water coming off the city and the river itself. And came up with a proposal that was noting all the different ways that the, the Milwaukee River related to the streets of the city. And by the time the project was built, pretty much everything was stripped off that was demonstrating that in some way. And the plain version was built by others. Which is fine. And people really seemed to like this river walk. But it was almost too early to be talking about that. This was, you know, 25 years ago or something.

Jeanne Gang: 36:02

Mm-hmm.

Mary Miss: 36:03

And I've gotten to know Stuart Pickett, who's somebody who's been really looking at, um, urban ecology in a very kind of new way, starting when he started to do that. But I thought it was interesting. It was probably the same time period that he started this long term study in Baltimore. I think he tried to do it in New York and New York wasn't interested or something. But he did this, uh, oversaw this long term study in Baltimore. But, you know, we are in these totally different fields but looking at issues from different points of view.

Jeanne Gang: 36:44

Mm-hmm.

Mary Miss: 36:44

So that's been interesting to kind of, uh, see that, uh, happen.

Jeanne Gang: 36:49

Yeah, I, I was thinking as you were talking, this one collaboration that we did in Chicago that was so much fun. It was, um, I was asked to design a stage for Nick Cave and his performances. And we worked together for a while, just getting to know each other. And then the design that I ended up landing on was not a physical, like a platform of a stage. But it was more of an object that could be used to interact with in his performances and the public. So it was like this, a buoy, we called it a stage buoy. But you know, we push it down and it should come back up. But the physics of that was, was really like getting it to be down the right amount of time and not come up too hard and hit someone. And, um, so I called Sid Nagel, who's at the University of Chicago. And, and he just came over to the studio. And he's like, well, you know, we just need more mass down here. And he just helped us to very quickly, like, solve this problem. But then he got really engaged with, with the project and also helped us with another performance piece that had to do with jamming. Which was a, you know, a technique of creating structures through pressure. And that was for a dance troupe as well. So it's interesting that these collaborations can continue onto other projects. And it's true, these different perspectives of things come together and that's, that's when the sparks start happening. I really love that.

Mary Miss: 38:19

Well, I, I know you've worked so much in Chicago. You must feel lucky to be able to work in your own city as much as you, you do. Well, for me, I, that's where I developed this kind of way of looking and building and everything. And starting with those small community centers and then I didn't just go out and try to be global architect. I, I just tried to use that approach. But it requires, in every place really learning it a new, like you're doing in Milwaukee right now. But through the process, it's like a methodology almost that you can deploy and it really gives you a sense. Part of it is to talking with people and engaging. But ways of looking at different new places allows you to make a work that's more relevant to that place. And more engaged and more, the climate there. The, the ecology that exists. The people. The things that they care about. All of that came for me from these first early projects. And then I'm able to try to understand and gain understanding of a place in a deeper way.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 39:25

I wanted to ask a question cuz I was really interested in your response, Jeanne to Mary's question about being a woman in this space that's dominated traditionally by men. And your response about being on the margins. And that, that place allowing you to critique and sort of providing freedom. I'm curious in like a tangible way, where do you see the results of that perspective of operating from the margins? Or like where do you see the benefits and results like in the work? And actually that's a question for Mary, too. Because I think in a similar way, the answer Jeanne gave speaks to a woman making public work in, in the seventies. And so, and you know, forward,

Jeanne Gang: 40:05

Do you wanna go first, Mary?

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 40:07

No, go ahead.

Jeanne Gang: 40:11

Well, for example, right now my attention has always been on reuse. But I'm also shifting to more like a perspective that looks at embodied carbon. I know it sounds like a technical answer. But just when we think about it, new buildings have a lot of embodied carbon in them. And we can make a huge impact by reusing buildings. But I think it needs to be done in a really interesting way. But just that fact of that perspective, that is not what people are talking about in the conversations about architecture right now at all in the states. I, I think maybe in other places more so. But, and it's kind of obvious in a way. So, um, I guess seeing it from not like, you know, how many new buildings can I get to be my signature? And like, but, but thinking about it more from like, what are we doing, has led me to thinking about new ways and transformations of existing buildings and how they can be reinvented. Maybe, you know, not a, like a historic building should be preserved maybe. But there could be new ways of thinking about adding onto, transforming buildings that gives them a new life. Extends their carrying capacity. Changes their program. Lets them endure and keep all that stockpile of carbon. But at the same time be a creative prompt. So, I think that's like one example that I'm working on right now. Which I think is, it's different. It's not what the conversation is about so much right now. It's more about technologies that we can do to reduce carbon, which is great. We need all the solutions we can get. But I think this one is one that is like, hmm, let's look at this differently.

Mary Miss: 42:00

I'd say, you know, I have been in a very marginal position. Which isn't a role that I would describe for Jeanne. But in that I'm not really seen as an artist. I'm not seen as a landscape architect and architect. I'm in this in between, this marginal territory in a way. And I think I ended up starting this nonprofit City as a Living Laboratory, in a way, because it seemed that there were no pathways for artists to really have access to addressing the complex issues that we have to deal with. And I felt like, whether we're talking about artists or designers, I feel like visual thinkers have ways of approaching problems and, that could be so essential to our conversations. And so coming up with this framework of City as a Living Laboratory to support this idea of putting forward this notion of people in the arts as having an essential role. Not just the sideline. Not just the afterthought. But really having an essential role in addressing the issues of our times. I've really been so happy to be able to pursue this. And for me, that really means putting forward the idea that we're looking at the need for a constellation of artists and people out there. You know, making smaller or larger contributions to our cities. And particularly our cities and the issues that that we're facing. So, I think, to be able to stand outside and look in, has been a very kind of rewarding thing. Although I think my artist friends wonder what in the world I'm doing. But running a non-profit was never my goal in life.

Jeanne Gang: 44:13

Well, you're describing the process of making art, as well. And your process is, that's again, that's a thing that, it wasn't for fronted for a long time. And being able to step back a bit and be able to look at what's going on, there was like a lack of that. So you can step in. You see where there's opportunity too. I think that's an important thing to, to take away for young architects and the artists that feel they might be marginalized. They're invisible. I mean, that's how I felt starting out. I was like, wait, no, I was great in my studios. And I have the best projects. But then you're like suddenly invisible. So it's about looking for those kind of opportunities of where is there something missing that needs to be said. That needs to be done. That needs to be made. And just like go in there and make it. Like that, that I think is empowering.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 45:09

That's interesting that you used the word invisible. This is a conversation that actually just came up in a recent other podcast recording of this, the power of invisibility. Or that place on the margins that actually can act as a superpower. And like what can access from this place of being underestimated or not seen and, and sort of like gathering information from that place. I think it's really interesting to see how people use that as an empowering position. And like what comes, what's the result of that space?

Mary Miss: 45:37

Well, it, Jeanne, the main thing I would like to say is that you're providing an, an amazing kind of pathway that you've taken, uh, for others to be able to see. I know that so many young people are interested in these issues that you're addressing now. And I think it's just really wonderful that this kind of approach, this way of thinking that you've evolved is out there and visible for others to be able to look at.

Jeanne Gang: 46:09

Well, thank you for saying that. But I also think that like, I'm constantly presented with new challenges too, to being in that. So, if you're not any longer in that position or you know, everyone's, if somebody's paying attention to you and you're, you're getting these projects, that's when this back to the book club. Don't just accept things because now it's your turn. No, it's like, every single thing needs to be thought about. And that's partly why that intellectual life of the studio is so important to me. It's not just me. It's having these discussions and being able to kind of extract something. Understand why are we doing this project and what can we bring to it. I think for me, I, I really want to engage with things that maybe seem, like, it's not the most environmental thing. Like how can you make a project as big as an airport be something different? You know, how do we think about that? Because if we don't do it, you know, it'll still be done. So, I feel like it's important to take on these challenges of our society, of our environment, and to spend time really trying to make a good approach. And that's, yeah, that's, that drives me and it inspires me to, and, and sometimes scary too. To take on issues that, if you were a student you would've said, ah, that's not in line with my principles, or something like that. I like to challenge myself with those tough things and see how we can do something positive.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 47:48

And this is for both of you. Do you see the way that you're approaching these like, new approaches to the way that you're making things, specifically like, the, the differences of how people previously approached things in your industry, do you see that as a blueprint that you're hoping to sort of like, input for other people to then like, take and move from? Or how much is it about it's really needed that this is a project that I'm making and people will figure out other ways to do it. Or do you see this also as like, my brain goes to curriculum. I teach. But do you see it as kind of like laying out a bit of a curriculum for like, this is a way to do this differently?

Mary Miss: 48:25

It's something I think about quite a bit. Because in Milwaukee for instance, we're asking artists from neighborhoods to do projects in relation to each of the water markers that we're putting up in the different neighborhoods. And my approach has been, not all artists are necessarily going to be interested in these issues. But artists are pretty much, you know, if you offered them some money and an opportunity, they'll go in that direction. But how do you bring people into this, to the concerns? To this, so the first thing we do is ask the artists to begin to think about the issues of water and the environment, in a particular neighborhood. And find out from them what interests them about that. And sometimes that's even a hard question to ask. But you know, we'll kind of keep talking with them. See where that might lead. And then we choose a partner, an expert, a scientist, an engineer, a historian. We help them find somebody to begin a conversation. And then we ask those two to lead a walk through the neighborhood. So, there are so many challenges in each of those steps. And how do you do this in a way that you are comfortable as an artist. That you're beginning to use your powers of observation and imagination in ways that maybe they hadn't been used before. How do you think about that group that you're walking with. And what kind of provocations could you come up with to get those people, not just following along like a herd of sheep, but really engaged in some way? So, we are trying to figure out how to do that piece by piece. And so it's like, it's really a challenge. And we're trying to do it in a way that we could pass along to another community or city and say, here's a roadmap for how you could do an urban scale project. You know, that's the whole thing about this Milwaukee project. How do you do something at the scale of a city? So, I wish there was a meeting place where we could have these conversations with a group of artists and go through this and get their ideas. But we're doing it piece by piece. Will this work? We'll see.

Jeanne Gang: 50:57

That's interesting cuz it's kind of aligned with this idea of, which I called it actionable idealism. Because it's, it's kind of like you have to hang onto your ideals. But then you can work at getting them done like piece by piece. I think that's an important, like making progress on those ideas is, is really important. But in terms of like how to, um, whether this is a curriculum or if it's, I think in the sense that I have an office and a practice that is full of people. And we all are approaching things this way, in that sense, it's on the practice side, it's a curriculum within our office. We make projects and publications and talk about the way that we work. And I think that is, um, that's hopefully spreading. So, but of course it'll come out differently in the physical projects of different people and their own artistic vision. And then through teaching as well, which I do at Harvard Graduate School of Design, and I, um, have been teaching studios about reuse. And specifically brutalist concrete buildings, like, which are probably like, they're the hardest to reimagine, let's say. But they represent just such a big chunk of carbon sitting there that how can students start to approach, you know, a dialogue with an existing building. A, different modes of intervening and editing them. And so it is kind of an approach that is being explored on a scale that's in the, um, you know, spreading out, I guess if you will, thinking this way. And hopefully it's, yeah, it's the, it's the way of thinking in a world where we are living with other living things. And we reinforce each other as opposed to colonizing, dominating and destroying.

Mary Miss: 52:51

Uh, I just, I, when you talk about reuse, I, I think I have to bring up one of my passions. Which is repurposing existing structures, for instance. So in Milwaukee, there's a stack at the edge of Lake Michigan and we would like to have that become the beacon for this project. And just by the means of, of lighting it and changing the color of it. If there's a chance of a sewage overflow that it turns red. Which is the indication that everybody in the city can become part of the green infrastructure of the city by not using water. And so they're just ways that you can twist things. Or going back to the early project around Ground Zero. Just by bringing flowers, it would've allowed people to come as mourners instead of as voyers. So, there can just be some modest turns, pivots that can really alter, uh, the way we are in the world.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 53:54

Yeah. I love the way that you talked about that, um, I remember you talked a little bit about that last time, Mary, the, uh, mourners from Voyers, that shift and like what that experience is like as somebody, you know, approaching something and, and sort of recognizing that there is a, a core difference in the way you're looking.

Jeanne Gang: 54:10

I have a question for you, because these things that you're doing have like a, they're in space and time. And how do you know what the duration of something should be where it can have this impact? Because like that was a specific time and, does it have to be done when the event is happening? Or I guess the project in Milwaukee has a different duration. How do you see time with respect to your projects?

Mary Miss: 54:35

Time is really a interesting thing. And difficult. I know that one of the things that we're thinking about with the Milwaukee project is how to make this sustainable over time. So first of all, I've been working on this since 2014 with almost no support. Except very modest National Endowment for the Arts grants or things like that. And now we have this several million dollar National Science Foundation grant. Which is only another three years. It's four years altogether. And that will take us into a point of, okay, what happens to this project in the future? So we're trying to work with existing agencies, institutions, city government, NGOs, to figure out how to make this sustainable over time. Not just, okay, we've got the municipal sewer district agreeing to maintain the markers. But how do we keep others come online, uh, over the next decade or so, beyond the period of this grant, how do we keep those, uh, current and have these be, you know, I've referred to these markers as stakes in the ground in each community where I really don't want the conversation to go away, but how do you make sure that this isn't just a relic that ends up in that neighborhood? So, trying to make this something that's an ongoing project is, and I don't know what the answers to these questions are yet. It's something that we're working through. And that's kind of been the way it's gone from the very start of this project. Just, okay, here's the next question, how do we deal with that? Here's the next question. So, going back to the project at Ground Zero, or a project I had done in Boulder with a very simple six inch diameter markers showing a flood level, those are probably ideas that could be repurposed in other places, other situations. But to go back to the most difficult thing right now. How to make sure that the people in neighborhoods really become engaged with these issues in a meaningful way. That it's not just a transfer of information that's being attempted to know what the water cycle is or whatever. But that there's some kind of meaningful care about their own neighborhood. And feeling that there is this possibility of creating a future of sustenance. Not being done for them, but with people. And you know these, I guess all of this work is about things that I don't know the answers to.

Jeanne Gang: 57:38

One thing it brings to mind is like, if there's progress that's visible, then it starts to build momentum. And I think that, that could be one tool that, I noticed that with our work in the Chicago River. First it was a research project. A book about like the famous reversal of Chicago River. And people seem to be proud of that somehow. But if you look at what the result is a hundred years later, you know, it's really not great. There's a lot of repercussions to water quality, to flooding, to invasive species approaching the um, Great Lakes. So multifaceted problems. So, what we try to do is like, a book about how could you un-reverse the river? Or, you know, what would it look like? And what we discovered in that book, it was a discovery, I didn't think about this before. But it's what you're talking about now, is, you know, first giving people access to it. Because a lot of people didn't even know the river's there. You just drive over a bridge and it's all industrial lands around it. And so, you know, there was a groups that, Friends of the River and things trying to build up interest. But to give people access like, in different ways that they would start to engage with it and feel ownership over it. And to be, become stewards of it. And that was the goal of of that. So, I luckily was, this book was seen by a mayor and city. And the mayor decided to kind of do these access points as boathouses for the Chicago River. And there were already rowing clubs. But now they had like pride of really cool building to go into the water. We, we designed two of these out of the four. And then I just also saw the same thing happening with the river in the downtown area with new designs that gave people access to it. Extending the river walk. And it's like building momentum. It's crazy how it's, I've never seen such a dramatic change in an urban environment. It's like we have this whole new thing now in the city that wasn't there. And it's, it just keeps building, building. And because the river touches all these neighborhoods, I mean, it's not just one place. There's a potential for everyone to have that access. And, um, I, I'm really excited by how that like avalanche happened. And...

Mary Miss: 1:00:00

That's a wonderful story. I love hearing that.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 1:00:05

I wanna keep hearing you guys talk. Especially as you sort of keep illuminating your different really interesting projects. But it is time to sort of bring us a little bit to close. And so the question I always ask connects us back to the reason that we are here today on this podcast, the National Academy. Which brings together artists and architects, peers, nominate you into this collective. And it's a pretty unique group of people. So I'm always curious to know how everybody feels about this collective of artists and architects. The potential of this group of people. The history of it. And your place in this almost 200 year old institution.

Mary Miss: 1:00:41

Well, I have to say I love seeing the direction it's going in now. I may have said that it seemed to be a place more for architects, uh, earlier on, uh, than artists. Or at least we weren't paying so much attention. I think more artists pay more attention to it now. And this idea of opening the Academy up and making it more receptive to the world around us and who lives in that world is uh, such an important step. So I'm really happy to see that happening.

Jeanne Gang: 1:01:16

I second that cuz I think it, initially it seemed like it was a little private club. And I think the potential of it is huge. And this is just a great example of bringing artists and architect together to have a conversation. And I think I wanna see more of that and be more a part of it.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 1:01:33

Well, that's exciting for me to hear because, Jeanne, I, I will follow up to see if you wanna be a part of another conversation where you get to select an Academician to speak to. It's been such a pleasure to have Mary over two episodes, but we would love to continue that, that chain. So with that, thank you both for joining. It's been a pleasure to hear you guys discuss your practices and the relationship to each other and how much you've watched each other. So thank you so much

Mary Miss: 1:02:00

Jeanne, nice to see you. I hope we, our paths cross and we can continue this.

Jeanne Gang: 1:02:06

Oh, thank you, Mary. I'm sure we will. And thanks Adrienne. It was great to be here.

Mary Miss: 1:02:11

Bye.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 1:02:12

Bye. You're listening to Exquisite Corpse. That was so nice. It was so nice to meet Jeanne. She's so approachable and intelligent. And she just really seemed so invested in the core values of her architecture practice.

Anjelic Owens: 1:02:41

Yeah, definitely. Honestly, I don't know, I feel like when it comes to architecture, it's this lofty idea. But it was nice to hear her speak. And it kind of distilled these ideas further and made it a little bit more, oh, I don't wanna say approachable again. But it made it more accessible for me to understand these concepts.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 1:03:00

Totally. I think there's an expectation for somebody who creates projects on such a large scale to not feel like, they're able to sort of bring them back to earth, down to earth to understand sort of like what's happening. But it really just felt like there was an investment in the way she makes the work that makes that a natural way for her to talk about it and relate to other people, us, but Mary Miss. And Mary Miss' practice, she is engaged in public work, in the public. They have so many crossovers in that area. It didn't feel like there was a separation in how they're approaching thinking about things.

Anjelic Owens: 1:03:41

Exactly. Yeah, if I love the emphasis on method with a core like relationship focused on community.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 1:03:48

Mm-hmm.

Anjelic Owens: 1:03:49

And so like, it was cool hearing how they both shared those different strategies. And also being pioneers like in their field, too. Even if they don't wanna admit it.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 1:03:58

Well, yeah. Being women in these fields, and I love that Mary brought that up as a specific question to Jeannie. Because it shouldn't go unnoticed. It's a male dominated field. And there is,

Anjelic Owens: 1:04:09

Yeah.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 1:04:09

You know, whether it feels overt, or it's at the top of her mind, it is something that is going to come into how she's navigating the world. And I really enjoyed Mary bringing feminism into the conversation through her lens as creating work in the seventies. And like, understanding what that meant. And like, what does feminism mean in architecture? You know, what does it mean to create a space that's sensitive to the people that we're, you know, sensitivity is a positive and thinking about the environment and not...

Anjelic Owens: 1:04:39

Mm-hmm.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 1:04:39

...you know, like, what, what is that approach? What does that mean?

Anjelic Owens: 1:04:42

Exactly. They did also talk about like, the different strategies they use to engage with community. And so one of the things that Jeanne brought up was the book club and research structure.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 1:04:54

I mean, absolutely. I, that was so exciting. I mean, I know you probably were listening thinking like, Adrienne's loving this. Because we've been working on a book club at the National Academy of Design. You know, we create programs, public programs. But part of our mandate as our, in our department, is education. Um, as an institution that's been really a part of who we are. And thinking about how we kind of, look at these ideas of curriculum, not just being a part of like a university classroom, but creating a structure where we can bring people into in depth conversations. Really interesting topics and themes related to the things that our artists and architects of the Academy are thinking about.

Anjelic Owens: 1:05:37

Yeah.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 1:05:38

I thought it was great that like, all of her projects have a bibliography. I immediately was like, I wanna see all of them.

Anjelic Owens: 1:05:43

A hundred percent. Yeah. I again, that's like a, that's the first time I've ever heard of that actually. And it's like really unique.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 1:05:49

I mean, how amazing would it be to walk into a building and like you have like a handout that's the bibliography of like, if you want to like come to this place where you're understanding the research involved in what happened here, like, here's your list of reading material. I mean, the educator in me is, like, so excited about that.

Anjelic Owens: 1:06:07

Exactly. Like that's intentional though. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's a level of care that is present in how she engages with her projects and also accessibility, right? Just how like, I want to invite you into my process and into this experience. Cause it's a collective, right? So, I love that.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 1:06:27

Yeah. And I like, you know, she was recognizing like these projects are long term. So she has people coming in and out of their firm during projects and to help catch them up. It's not just a meeting, it's like, here's our research. Here's the books to read, here's, you know, a documentary to watch. It really feels like they need you to fully understand the core value of a project before getting to bras tacks and designing.

Anjelic Owens: 1:06:52

Yeah. If anything that kind of makes you think of Mary Miss's organization and how, I think she talked about this briefly, just like working with different audiences. And so it's like they're working kind of with the government. They're also working with like, other practitioners and like, scientists and how it is this like, intentional collaborative conversation. But you kind of have to speak like, different languages in each, you know?

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 1:07:18

It really for me feels like you can start to create a blueprint for this potential that she talked about with the National Academy. You know, saying like, what kind of, how do you enact that potential? How do you really harness that potential? And it feels like they're learning how they're working in their own ways, starts to build a model for engaging with lots of different people and lots of different groups and understanding how to move forward with that collective thought.

Anjelic Owens: 1:07:42

Exactly. Collective thought. I think that's such a key point. Especially again, kind of how we're approaching our book club. And really inviting in the public. And trying to facilitate intentional conversations.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 1:07:53

Absolutely. So another great conversation. I'm so happy for us to get to kind of do this format in some ways again. In that we're, we're gonna be talking to another artist and architect on the next one.

Anjelic Owens: 1:08:09

Yes. I cannot wait. We are gonna have artists, Pat Lasch and architect James Timberlake. Both, just, again, just a perfect example of old friends that have a mutual respect for each other.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 1:08:21

Yeah. It's really sweet to see where people's relationships started. But get to be a part of a conversation that's down the line and hearing them reminisce.

Anjelic Owens: 1:08:31

Mm-hmm.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 1:08:31

We go to Italy in this conversation, and get to hear a lot about their time in Rome. And so, that's a really fun conversation. And it's always, you know, great to be a part of those.

Anjelic Owens: 1:08:43

Yes, definitely. Uh, they're definitely, I think especially for this episode, the visual elements are critical. So definitely check out our website for all the amazing images that will go along with this episode.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 1:08:58

Absolutely. Yeah. So thanks for joining us. And, um, as Anjelic mentioned, check out our website for additional materials. Please also subscribe to us on any channel you're listening to us on now.

Anjelic Owens: 1:09:10

Yes.

Adrienne Elise Tarver: 1:09:10

Uh, like us. Give us some high ratings, if you like what you hear. And we look forward to seeing you next time.

Anjelic Owens: 1:09:19

Thank you for listening to Exquisite Corpse from the National Academy of Design. We're a 5 0 1 C 3 nonprofit organization dedicated to promoting art and architecture. And we rely on your support to make programs like this possible. To learn more and to donate. Visit National Academy.org. This conversation was recorded on September 19th, 2022. Exquisite Corpse is written and produced by Adrienne Elise Tarver and Anjelic Owens. And co-produced, mixed and edited by Mike Clemow and Wade Strange at SeeThru Sound.