Exquisite Corpse: Contemporary Conversations
Exquisite Corpse: Contemporary Conversations is a podcast series from the National Academy of Design featuring conversations between National Academicians. This podcast is a space for the artists and architects who have shaped this institution to connect, discuss, and ask questions of each other. National Academy Director of Programs and Series Host Adrienne Elise Tarver takes you into the organization that is contending with its almost 200-year history and finding its place in the 21st century.
Exquisite Corpse: Contemporary Conversations
Susanna Coffey NA + Sangram Majumdar NA
The second episode of season three joins friends and National Academicians Susanna Coffey and Sangram Majumdar in a conversation about painting. Both acclaimed painters, their conversation brings the audience into the complexities of painting–the material, gesture, and how it changes with their environment.
Sangram explains the evolution of his process as his paintings mark critical moments in time, from the 2016 presidency to a cross-country move. Susanna examines her own revelation with self portraits which began out of necessity for her teaching position at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. They relate with one another about the ebbs and flows of their practices over time. In sharing different touch points of their journey, the conversation turns to the concept of invisibility versus visibility. Each of them share how they create despite perceived constraints and let the work live expansively.
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hi I'm Adrienne Elise Tarver and I am joined by Anjelic Owens. And welcome back to the Exquisite Corpse Podcast. This podcast is a series of conversations between artists and architects who've been elected by their peers to the National Academy of Design for their extraordinary contributions to art and culture in America. These are the National Academicians and they are at the core of the oldest artist run organization in the United States. This is Exquisite Corpse. Welcome back to the podcast everyone. We're really excited about this episode. We're joined by painters Susanna Coffey and Sangram Majumdar. But first, let's do our Historical Acknowledgement.
Susanna Coffey:Hi, my name is Sara Reisman and I'm the Chief Curator at the National Academy of Design. The National Academy of Design was initiated by artist and architects to fill a void in the American artistic landscape of the 19th century. But we recognize our history has excluded many communities and cultures whose lineages and practices must be included in this country's art, historical canon. Indigenous peoples, people of color, queer and non-binary individuals, and people with disabilities. We are committed to a process of dismantling the ongoing legacies of settler, colonialism and white supremacy. We're excited to move forward and have conversations that reflect the important questions and issues of today. We are the National Academy of Design, and you're listening to Exquisite Corpse.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Anjelic, so happy to be back with you on the podcast.
Anjelic Owens:Hey Adrienne, I'm happy to be back.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:So this episode we have Sangram Majumdar and Susanna Coffey, who are both painters. I'm very familiar with their work. Susanna was my advisor in grad school, actually. Uh, I was in the painting department of the School of the Art Institute of Chicago and she was working there at the time.
Anjelic Owens:Nice.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And Sangram's this great painter, who I followed his work for a while. So how familiar are you with their work?
Anjelic Owens:Um, actually, not too familiar. But I did do my homework. Uh, I did research on both of them. And I also realized that I had a nice resource for the out of many talks that we did last fall. Uh, and so slight plug for those, definitely checked those out. Um, we did a series of talks with art historian Dr. Kelli Morgan for our 2021 Digital Annual Exhibition. So you can definitely enjoy those on our website. But first of all, you worked with Susanna in school? That's crazy. So you actually knew her, knew her.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah.
Anjelic Owens:So like what were you, I know you were doing a lot of painting, or were you doing a lot of painting in grad school? Cause I feel like you work with a lot of different mediums.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah, I do now. And that was definitely a turning point, a pivotal point for me. Um, my background is painting very thoroughly. My undergraduate and graduate degrees, I was in the painting department.
Anjelic Owens:Nice.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And I love paint, but I had an identity crisis in grad school. I wasn't sure what kind of artist I was. I was making some non painting work, experimenting a little bit, but still very attached to that identity of being a painter. So, there was a point where I was making this miniature house that I started because I was going to make paintings from it.
Anjelic Owens:Oh, wow.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And then the end, I, the end of the semester, the end of the, the end of my degree, I, my thesis project was actually this miniature house and taking photographs of it. It was based on my childhood home. And I made, uh, for the thesis exhibition, I had photographs and sculptural objects based on my childhood home and memories. But I, I, I went through this whole, this whole confusion of like, can I even call myself a painter?
Anjelic Owens:Mm-hmm.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And yeah, that was about the time that Susanna was working with me. Uh, we had this, like the last email, you know, we communicate with people before they're on the podcast . And the last email was Susanna, who is just the sweetest, always has been. Um, she remembered this house I made in grad school.
Anjelic Owens:Oh, wow.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And what did she say? I'll, I'll go ahead and just like read a direct quote: on another note, I enjoyed hearing you speak about architecture and the episode with Mary Miss. I remember so clearly the work you did while you were at SAIC when we were working together. I love the houses, the intricacy of those spaces. I've never forgotten that work.
Susanna Coffey:I would love that. And I have such vivid memories of your work, Adrienne.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:It's like so heartwarming to hear that cuz you just assume and like, I don't know, like I teach now, like I don't remember everything. So I'm like, Oh that's really nice.
Susanna Coffey:Well, it it, they're vivid. I remember cuz the, the images of the house are so, so clear.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Well before we get, I, it's, I like, would love to listen to you talk about my grad school work, but... I'm gonna...
Anjelic Owens:Oh my gosh, that's actually really sweet. She remembers you. That's saying a lot.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I know. I mean, it's, I just don't expect a professor, I mean, to remember me, let alone my work. And so, it was just really, it's really heartwarming to hear that. But she, she's basically remembering this time in grad school when I just was grappling with my identity as a painter and she really supported the exploration of different materials and she is an amazing painter.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah. Honestly, I, from the little research I did, um, I saw that she actually started herself portraits to prepare for a teaching position. And so like from that process, she just kept going and going and became enamored with the process, so...
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah, so now she has this whole archive of years of doing self-portraits, this archive of her face. And it's really, I think, an incredible project to see.
Anjelic Owens:It's so interesting to hear about just your relationship with paint and how you just navigated that during grad school. And I guess I'm interested to know, like, how have you stayed committed to using this medium and how has, like, seeing Susanna and Sangram's painting practice, um, inspired you?
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah, I mean, I think I didn't know what I was committed to when I started exploring. But I, I've, throughout my career, kept coming back to painting. It's just second nature to me. Especially, exploring different ideas. Um, and painting in different painting medium. So ink, uh, oil paint, are the kind of the two main ones I go back and forth with. But I ultimately have just a deep love for the material, it's abilities...
Anjelic Owens:Mm-hmm.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:...it's history. And my love of paint affects the kind of work I make regardless of the material, is what I'm finding. Sometimes people point that out to me and they can tell I'm a painter even if I'm making a video or a sculpture. But it clearly affects the way, not only that I make work, the way that I look at work, the way I investigate work. It's just based deeply in my love of the material.
Anjelic Owens:Oh, wow.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And I just, yeah, I love when painting is more than a means to an end. That you can look at a painting or a painter's work, and you see the experience of the paint. Uh, artists that are really good at color relationships and like the way that the paint next to each other, the different textures it builds up of the paint, how they're moving the brush. It's just, seeing that investment and the material and the visibility of the material, it just like reignites my love of the material. So, I keep coming back to painting. Even as I explore other materials.
Anjelic Owens:Mmmmm. I definitely can see just the importance of investigating material. Like, I think it's always important to explore its limits. And I feel like I've been going through a similar process with my practice as well, you know? Starting off with photography, um, I feel like it's a pipeline for new mediums and finding new ways to express. And so, just after finishing grad school, I think I'm definitely have been taking some time to rediscover new interests. And also just kind of grappling with am I still an artist in this in between space of exploring new mediums?
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I mean, I definitely relate to the, that space in between, that space after grad school. I was so insecure about calling myself an artist when I was in this period of time with no studio. I like moved to a new place and nobody knew me as an artist. And to say you're an artist with really nothing to, no shows, no studio to show for it, is really, uh, a strange place to be. But I think it's, you know, if you're committed to making, then that's, that's the definition of being an artist, in some ways.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:So one of the things, you know, I'm so super familiar with Suzanne's work because she was my advisor. But also Sangram's work I've been familiar with. He's one of those artists who I've had, like, images of his work up in my studio for like years and...
Anjelic Owens:Oh wow.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:...you know, there's a few paintings in particular that I was really interested. And then when I joined, um, National Academy, that was around the time that he was donating his diploma work to the Academy.
Anjelic Owens:Mm.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Uh, that all NAS do. And it happened to be what he was donating was one of my favorite paintings of his that I had had up in my studio for years.
Anjelic Owens:Oh my goodness.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And then, we got to go to the, see our collection recently. Um, and...
Anjelic Owens:mm-hmm.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:...lo and behold, I finally get to see this painting, which is much bigger than I expected, in person. So, it was this like lovely full circle experience of being familiar with his work, but then getting that sort of intimate experience with his work in our collection storage.
Anjelic Owens:Yes. Like, it seems like his, his work has always been with you, you just didn't even know it.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Both incredible painters. Both had real impacts on me. Uh, and we get to have them both on the episode today. So, Susanna, who was previously a professor at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago, where I was her student, she got a BFA from the University of Connecticut. An MFA from the Yale School of Art and has been teaching at Columbia University in New York. Uh, she is known for her series of self-portraits, which she talks about on the episode. Is represented by Stephen Harvey Fine art projects in New York. And has shown all over the country and the world. It's received a Guggenheim Fellowship, a Louis Comfort Tiffany Award, and she lives here in New York. And Sangram Majumdar, who got his BFA from RISD, an MFA from Indiana University, has had shows at Steven Harvey Fine art Projects, Geary New York, The Landing in LA, James Cohen Gallery in New York and many more. He's shown all over the country and the world. And has been a part of incredible residencies like MacDowell, Yaddo, Sharpe Studio Space. He spent time teaching in Baltimore at MICA. And is now an Assistant Professor of Painting and Drawing at the University of Washington in Seattle. He also has two upcoming solo shows, one at Mamoth Gallery in London this summer and another at Galerie Mirchandani and Steinruecke in Mumbai in 2024.
Susanna Coffey:Hi, my name is Susanna Coffey and I'm a painter who has been a member of the Academy since 1996. I have known Sangram for, not quite that long, but for a long time. And I'm a great fan of his work. And, uh, I am, uh, now teaching at Columbia University where I have been working for a while as an adjunct this year. And, uh, I'm in Connecticut in what was once my father's garage. Uh, and is now my studio here outside of the city. But tomorrow I'm back in New York.
Sangram Majumdar:Hi, uh, my name is Sangram Majumdar. I am a painter, as well. And I'm right now in Seattle, which is where I moved last summer to take a position at University of Washington. And I'm in my studio, kind of, slightly overcast. Little sun is speaking through. I've known of Susanna long before I met Susanna. So, you know, she's one of those people who I had always wanted to meet. Then we met, and I'm so happy to say that, you know, she's such a close friend and, uh, and I'm really excited to do this today.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Thank you both for joining. I am also very excited to this day for reasons which we'll illuminate, I'm sure on the podcast. Um, but Susanna, I'm gonna start by just asking you, when we reached out and asked who you'd like to speak to on this podcast, why did you choose Sangram?
Susanna Coffey:Oh, well, I am a huge fan of his work. And I'm, uh, in addition to being, uh, loving the work, uh, its concepts, its visuality and, uh, his mastery, uh, in regards to color and use of color. So, again, before I met Sangram I saw his work and, and really fell in love with it. So, it's been a real honor to have a relationship with him around our work. I chose Sangram because we share many aspects of painting. And that is an understanding that an image, uh, embodies more than its immediate iconographic association. That is, the pipe is not always a pipe to quote Magritte. Uh, so, and we also share kind of an understanding that the paint is an active participant in the image. And that, uh, I, I feel his paintings create locations that might be, to quote the Sufis, in the world, but not always of the world, in the ordinary sense. So, there are many levels that I feel are present, uh, in the work of Sangram over the years. And as the work changes, those elements are still there. Yeah, he's great.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:So maybe you guys could tell us a little bit about how you did meet. You kind of reference how long you've known each other, but how did you two meet?
Sangram Majumdar:Oh boy.
Susanna Coffey:Yeah, I know it's been a long time.
Sangram Majumdar:Do you remember, susanna, like a direct, direct encounter? Like when did we, when did we, I feel like it was in New York. I think it was.
Susanna Coffey:It was in New York. It might have been at um, uh, Steven Harvey's.
Sangram Majumdar:Yeah. Either...
Susanna Coffey:It's been at the gallery at one of your shows?
Sangram Majumdar:Or your show or maybe a, somebody else's that be, was it mine?
Susanna Coffey:I think it was your show. Yes.
Sangram Majumdar:Okay.
Susanna Coffey:Yes. Cuz I had seen the paintings in the gallery before the show was up. And I was so...
Sangram Majumdar:Right.
Susanna Coffey:...taken with them. Particularly the one that we talked about. It's a painting of, uh, a dark room. And at the, uh, end of the space, there's a small figure.
Sangram Majumdar:Right.
Susanna Coffey:So it's, it caught my attention...
Sangram Majumdar:mm-hmm.
Susanna Coffey:as... your work always has. And I was hoping that you would be at the opening so I could meet you. And the aspect of that painting that was, I think, so representative of, of how I feel about your work had to do with the, the sense that the painting, which was dark, very richly colored, very deep color was dark, but very, very luminous. And it was of kind of an ordinary hallway or entering into a room. And in the most direct, figurative way. But the way that that little figure was at the back of the space. And you had painted a coat hanger a vivid blue to indicate the beginning of the space. And I thought, oh my goodness, this is really uh, painting about two different worlds that are coexisting. And, and, uh, I was very happy that I could meet you at the opening of that show. And I asked you to come to my studio.
Sangram Majumdar:Yeah.
Susanna Coffey:Which you did. And we had a great studio visit and I was very happy that we could do that.
Sangram Majumdar:I remember, I, I do remember, uh, going to a studio the first time. And just, I was like, wow. It was, it was like stepping into this amazing envelope of time and space. It's like you walk through the hallway, you know, there are, you know, dance studios and kids around. And then you go into your space and it almost felt like entering a monastery or a temple. It had this quality and, and there is, there are kind of alters and like actual alts in your space.
Susanna Coffey:Mm-hmm. So, I don't think that's too much of a jump for me to say that. But I also remember the light in there. You know, there is this kind of soft diffused light that would come in through the windows. There's like paintings in progress, things on the easel. I remember noticing how your palette was vertical. Like you would, you kind of would have it vertical next to you. And I, I don't think I had ever seen anyone do that. And I was like, huh, interesting. Okay. Mental note. And all the little things I feel like I learned from you. Like putting brushes in the freezer. I am a big, big, uh, it's like fits my mentality perfectly. And I, I support that and share that knowledge with as many people who are both working in oils but also are procrastinators. Mm-hmm., Sangram Majumdar: And avoid washing Um, and yeah. And I think it would be fun to talk to you about this, which is, like, how some of the things we make at a certain point in our lives kind of foreshadow what's to come. Mm-hmm.
Sangram Majumdar:I mean, I remember making that painting and not knowing how to make that painting. But wanting to make that painting. And I felt it was, it's like learning to ride a bike almost it felt like. You know, like things, it just doesn't fit right. I don't know what to do. But I know I wanna do this. And you know, there's this idea. But then there's this sense of all the different things I'm trying to bring into that, into that artwork. You know, in terms of the actuality of a space, the type of mood I want to create. Metaphors through storytelling that I'm referring to. Which, in this case. Was one of the major festivals that happens is puja, which is happening at the end of this month actually. And uh, and it was such a key part of my, I guess, history when I lived in India.
Susanna Coffey:Mm-hmm.
Sangram Majumdar:Um, going to those festivals every October, and the whole story and the myth behind it is wrapped up in both reincarnation, re-manifestation. You know, this kind of, to some degree, I don't know how much I feel about the good and evil binaries. But there's so much in there. It's so dense. And wanting to do something with that, but not knowing how to do it, you know?
Susanna Coffey:Mmmmm.
Sangram Majumdar:And now when I think about the paintings I'm making, actually, it's funny you brought that painting up, Susanna. The, uh, other day also is I've been thinking about some of those paintings from like four or five years ago and thinking, how would I re-approach them now with the vocabulary that feels more aligned with what I want to do and how I want to make. I do remember that coat hanger. Because the coat hanger I found on a sidewalk. I brought it and I picked it up because it was turquoise. It was like this, it was like somebody had painted this coat hanger. And I took it apart and put it back together to simultaneously both be a coat hanger and a trident at the same time. You know, , just a lot of things, um, picking in my brain that half of the time, you know, no one knows what, what I'm doing. Half the time. I don't know what I'm doing.
Susanna Coffey:But that, that painting really proved to me, uh, something that I've talk about quite a bit, you know, with my, my students. Uh, particularly, uh, in the past decade, that the act really precedes theory.
Sangram Majumdar:Mm-hmm.
Susanna Coffey:And, uh, the, the theories come out of actions.
Sangram Majumdar:Right.
Susanna Coffey:And, and actions come out of faith. Or hope.
Sangram Majumdar:Yeah.
Susanna Coffey:Uh, and that, that, that, uh, that is a Trident right there.
Sangram Majumdar:Right? Yeah.
Susanna Coffey:And, uh, that rein-, that paintings in some way are given the history, the global history of painting, is reincarnation.
Sangram Majumdar:Yeah.
Susanna Coffey:We could say that the life, the body of, the act of painting, in a way, you know, is reincarnation. Every artist, reincarnates another artist.
Sangram Majumdar:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Susanna Coffey:And one gives birth to all sorts of other artists, uh, actions from the past, even musicians and...
Sangram Majumdar:Do you remember, I was, um, as soon as you said that, it made me, a question popped into my head, which is, do you remember your first painting?
Susanna Coffey:Oh my goodness. The first painting, uh, thinking of myself as a painter, uh, I, I do what, would be, what I would think of as my first painting. And it would've been, uh, not the paintings I did from say, 1969 to 1980, What, 83 84. Maybe 85. Uh, not those. And uh, I've just been doing inventory of my very old paintings. So stop me if this is too, I'm going on too long about it. Cuz they're right here, here amongst me. Well, paintings I did in the sixties and seventies. But the painting I'm thinking of, no, it is not here. Uh, it was a self-portrait and I had been making many, many self-portraits. Because I'd gotten a job teaching figure painting right out of graduate school. And I got this job in Chicago at the Art Institute. It was really, you know, wonderful opportunity for me. I was very grateful. Thank you E.E.O. But I, I was teaching figure painting and I had never given my generation, a lot of people talk about this, they did not teach painting in the traditional way. In my years coming up, it was sort of post studio, lot of other things that were really interesting. But not how to paint from observation. So, I was painting a lot of self-portraits, uh, in order to be a better teacher. And I couldn't afford models at my $11,000 a year salary. So, I just painted myself to teach myself how to work from observation. Uh, and I was making other work. It was, you know, large 10, 12 foot paintings with mythological subject matter. But one day, I just, uh, started a self-portrait. And I kept working on it. And I could keep working on it. And I, my vision changed. That, the idea of seeing what was in the mirror, it really fed all the desire I had in regards to, uh, the concepts that interested me that had to do with a multivalent identity of human appearance, uh, gender, et cetera, et cetera. There was a whole line of ideas that I'd been working with. But it was only in that painting that I felt it, it swallowed it with one gulp. And, and I was reminded, and this is something else I've probably talked about to all of you, of the blues musician, Robert Johnson. And that story about going to the crossroads and meeting the devil. And you know, being kind of a soso musician. One day and the next day, you know, he's amazing. And I thought, that's how breakthroughs occur, though. That I had been trying for all of these things, all of these, to, to have something in my painting for years, for decades, really. And you know, I got some satisfactions. But I knew the work was lacking in some way. And it was in that one day it filled the Bill. I said, hello, self portraits. I'm never gonna sell another painting. I'm never gonna have another show. But this is the direction that I will go in. So, yes, I remember that so vividly.
Sangram Majumdar:And then it stayed with you. Obviously it became one of the multiple threads that you've carried through, you know, to the present. I mean, I have so many questions off of that. You know, one is, was that scary?
Susanna Coffey:Well, you know, that my deal with me...
Sangram Majumdar:Mm-hmm.
Susanna Coffey:...was whatever my work wanted, I'd give it to it.
Sangram Majumdar:Right.
Susanna Coffey:And that was my deal. And then I, I've kept that deal.
Sangram Majumdar:Yeah.
Susanna Coffey:And I know you too are someone that has made that deal.
Sangram Majumdar:Yeah. For better or worse. Yes. I have made, exactly. Yeah.
Susanna Coffey:So what about you? Tell me about the, what you think and all about your first painting.
Sangram Majumdar:Oh man. I feel like every few years, like five to six to seven years, something shifts. And I feel like I get a little closer, you know? And I feel like this journey of, like, what I do when I walk through the studio doors and kind of reengage with my brain and mind and body, in some ways, I feel like I'm not the same person. In other ways I feel like I am. So, for me, I have like key paintings that to me feel like aha moments. I don't think I would pick anything from grad school, you know?
Susanna Coffey:Mm-hmm.
Sangram Majumdar:But I'm always surprised by what I'm doing now and how in some ways they relate back to things I was trying to figure out how to say or talk about those ideas. Whether it's about, you know, a kind of interstitial, a space that is filled with promise and possibility and, and how to explore that, not through a space of anxiety and fear, but hope and possibilities.
Susanna Coffey:Mm-hmm.
Sangram Majumdar:And I think that has a lot to do with my own acceptance of myself as the kind of artist I am. And admiring other ways of making. But realizing that's not who I am. But I guess to your question of the very first painting, I don't think it was, uh, I did make self portraits. And, uh, one, my roommates would always make fun of me for making self portraits in undergrad. The, the most anxiety filled emo paintings no one should ever have to see. But I think towards the end of grad school, I made a painting of a whole group of figures in a plane. Doesn't look anything like what I'm making now. But I think it was about trying to bring this idea of transition and transit, all with a kind of relationship to the body. And also the format and what the sh-, it was this long painting that kind of was shaped like the windows of an airplane. It was like this long 12, 13 foot painting. I don't think it's a good painting. But I think it had these germs of ideas that have always stayed. And they feel like they're strongest now than they've ever been, you know? I was also thinking when you were talking about this self-portrait, it made me think of a phrase I think you've used before, which is this idea of disappearing into yourself.
Susanna Coffey:Mm-hmm.
Sangram Majumdar:And I really, I'm curious about that because it's like, I feel like I disappear when I'm looking at an artwork or engaging with an artwork. And I definitely feel like I disappear when I'm quote unquote in the zone. Do you have the same experience? Or what, what does it's like, I'm curious, like can you, how do you maintain and do you look for it? Do you like, do you search for that? Or is that that you know will come when you are working.
Susanna Coffey:Well, I would say to you and every other person on the planet, if you're looking at yourself in the mirror for seven years, you are going to be disappearing to yourself. So, there is no way around that. So, there is no way around that. Uh, you know, that game that children play to drive you insane when they repeat the same thing over and over again, right?
Sangram Majumdar:Uh-huh. Oh yeah, I know, I know that game.
Susanna Coffey:Yeah. You know that game, right? You have a child. Well, well, that's what I do to me.
Sangram Majumdar:Uh.
Susanna Coffey:And so, uh, and, and what I have found, and I realized, I did want to say something a little bit more about breakthrough. And, and, uh, selling your soul to the devil. It's really selling yourself to the angel. Because you work for a breakthrough. And you kind of do things for a long time. And you may have the breakthrough...
Sangram Majumdar:Right.
Susanna Coffey:When you're trying for it. Or it might happen, as it did for me, when you're just trying to be a better teacher. But that idea, I just paint and then of course I disappear to myself. And then I'll start to appear as if I might be someone else.
Sangram Majumdar:Right.
Susanna Coffey:And that's when I know I'm on the path to an image. So, it's like leaving...
Sangram Majumdar:Right.
Susanna Coffey:...attachment to, to, you know, how many wrinkles do I have? I mean, I'm like everybody. I'm vain. And you know...
Sangram Majumdar:you're right.
Susanna Coffey:And, and, uh, and conscious.
Sangram Majumdar:Well, it's interesting you say that because, sorry...
Susanna Coffey:Oh, it's just that, that you, after you break through that aspects of looking at yourself, uh, and, and you start to see, uh, other people. Or way that when might, uh, merge with other people, that's all.
Sangram Majumdar:Well, I was going to say that, the way you were describing this almost coming forward and pushing back or moving away, your paintings do that. Like in some of them, the, the head, right, like the, you know, it does come forward. Other times is barely recognizable. It's, it's hidden. It's literally camouflage or...
Susanna Coffey:Mm-hmm.
Sangram Majumdar:...other times there, I was looking at some of your paintings recently, and there's that one beautiful one. I don't think I've ever seen it in person of, it's basically a black painting. Like almost like a minimal...
Susanna Coffey:Mm-hmm.
Sangram Majumdar:...where there's very little shift between, I feel like this is the kind of subtlety that happens as Susanna's paintings that, wow, there's just like, I just feel like I can keep looking. And I guess what I was thinking about is, yeah, your paintings do that. Like from painting to painting, it's, it's not a given where the head is going to be. Where the person will be. Even though, you know, the general location where it is. Does that make sense? It's like, you know, something's there. But you don't know where it is, almost psychologically, uh, or even, uh, metaphorically.
Susanna Coffey:I, I think color does that. And, and that's, you know, I'm always working to be able to use color.
Sangram Majumdar:Yeah.
Susanna Coffey:Uh, in, in a stronger and more flexible way. But color unfolds slowly.
Sangram Majumdar:Mm-hmm.
Susanna Coffey:Uh, it's different than image. So, if the color is moving to, in any given painting, can move slowly towards a certain kind of physionomy, persona, state of being, et cetera, et cetera.
Sangram Majumdar:Mm-hmm.
Susanna Coffey:It's so, while the image is, you know, oh God, another head, uh, hopefully the color is something
Sangram Majumdar:Mm-hmm.
Susanna Coffey:That, uh, unfolds slowly and, and shifts what would be a, a pre known, easily seen image that is, uh, the, the old head. Uh, and I guess I wanted to talk, because there's something I noticed in the growth of your work as I was looking at it, because the, the painting I, to which I referred earlier, as were many of the paintings from that show, had to do with spaces that unfolded slowly that were, at face value, unremarkable. A closet, a painting rack, et cetera. And the idea of activity and movement came about through the image of a space. But it became a passage or, looking at the painting, became an experience of passage because of your, the color relationships you set up. And now your paintings have also a sense of movement. You've worked, I think, towards creating images that are on the cusp of representation. And the movement is now not about representation. But about the way that the paint picks up speed or slows down in relationship to a recognizable, iconic image. And so, it's interesting how the issue of movement has shifted over these last few years in your work. Especially with the very newest, the painting we talked about yesterday, the...
Sangram Majumdar:Yeah.
Susanna Coffey:...a fusia one with a light.
Sangram Majumdar:Is it the one, the rain, the that one you're talking about?
Susanna Coffey:Oh yes. That rain painting. Oh my goodness. That is so fabulous. All of those paintings have that quality.
Sangram Majumdar:Right.
Susanna Coffey:And that is, as the earlier paintings were about passage and a kind of movement through potidean iconography, a closet, a room, a paint rack, et cetera. Now the paintings offer movement from piece of paint to piece of paint. And the way that those gestures in the paint, the brush strokes or the large plains of, uh, violently contrast in color, create movement in a very different way as they constellate around whatever iconic graphic information is in the painting. Does that make sense?
Sangram Majumdar:Yes. Yes, with a question mark. It's interesting, you know, for me, like as you were describing, it's always interesting how somebody else describes the work you're making. Cuz like, when I'm making, there are no words in my head, right? And the only time words happen is like if I'm doing a studio visit or if I have to write, I don't know, a grant proposal or something like that, right? It's that time of the year again. But I think...
Susanna Coffey:Mm-hmm.
Sangram Majumdar:...there's been so much shift in my life in the last six years, I have to say, you know. And also in the world. I don't think it necessarily revolves around me just in this country, you know, on so many levels. You know, the politics, uh, is a huge part of that. And I think the way the work has shifted to bring the body back. But where there is a kind of, like, as you said, iconography. There's a kind of symbolic component to that. But also really personal component. I think that's something I've been searching for and I didn't know where it was until I found it. It's, it's like one of those things. You'll know it when you see it kind of a thing.
Susanna Coffey:Mm-hmm.
Sangram Majumdar:And you know, like you mentioned earlier that I have a daughter and, you know, I feel there is something very intense about spending a lot of time watching somebody develop and having to care for somebody while the world around you doesn't seem to care about human beings or the, or the country or, you know? And that weird disjuncture, like I'm thinking of a 2016 basically, and, and, and following a few years after that. And the, a certain, you know, time in the country. And I felt driven to want to paint the figure in a way that I hadn't felt before. And I think, you know, like as you're saying, there's a lot of reasons people paint. Some come out of a habit. Some come out of wanting to see something in front. Some come out of pleasure. And I feel like I had kind of like gone through those stages. And I needed something more. And I think that personal connection, I needed that, you know? And, uh, and I, when I found it, it, there was this amazing aha moment. And I think there's also this sense of change that also has to do with location. You know, and I, I would love to talk to you about that. Because you know, on one hand you've retained this thread in you, multiple threads in your work, as you've done this itinerant shift between Chicago and New York for many, many years. You're not doing it anymore, I know. You're in Connecticut now. And just me moving across the country this last year felt like the biggest shift in my life as it possibly could have made. You know, two pods, cars moving across the country, family, you know, et cetera, et cetera. I was thinking about like what do I do? You know? And for me, I feel very affected by where I am. Like if I go to a residency, I don't feel like I can make the same work there that I was making in the studio. And I'm really inspired by how you've found a way to keep yourself engaged by either inventing or coming up with new motifs that have carried you through. Like you said, like you needed to learn how to teach, how to paint the head. And so you took that on as part of your own experiment. And then suddenly that experiment became part of one of your paths. Uh, one of your main major paths. I guess my question as part of this is, I would love to hear you talk about, I guess the challenge of that and is, maybe it's not a challenge. Maybe that's really natural for you, of maintaining these threads while you are on the plane, on the train, you know, in the car back and forth, you know.
Susanna Coffey:Oh my goodness.
Sangram Majumdar:Sorry.
Susanna Coffey:I'll, I'll try, I'll try to make it brief. I do remember a drawing, uh, actually probably when I was working with you, Adrienne, on the plane during a time when I was flying back and forth.
Sangram Majumdar:Yeah.
Susanna Coffey:...uh, from Chicago. And I would, uh, draw, I'd have a little mirror and put it up on the little snack shelf, et cetera. Uh, it totally freaked the staff on the plane out. Cuz they couldn't... but it wasn't drawing. But it was the mirror.
Sangram Majumdar:Okay.
Susanna Coffey:It was just, they were just like so upset by this. They'd keep going by and say, well, I think you better put that away. Uh, anyway, I'm digressing, but it was pretty funny.
Sangram Majumdar:We should all try this next time we fly.
Susanna Coffey:Yes, on the, oh, no, they've, they've been through so much. Those , those, uh, people who work on the planes. They've had a tough time of it. I think because, uh, many of the issues that I care about in representation didn't feel satisfied. And so that helps me to keep going.
Sangram Majumdar:Mm-hmm.
Susanna Coffey:Uh, of course, I, in the last few years actually, I haven't made portraits. And I, I hope I go back to it. But I feel often that younger artists are doing what I wanted to do. There's so many more young, young people who are making such great work about figuration and about the world. And these, what I call the beautiful, terrible, you know? Very beautiful images of very difficult things. You know, Stephanie Arthur and Clintel, Clintel Steed, uh, Titus Kaphar, uh, Raelis Vasquez, John Re, so many, so many wonderful young painters. And I look at them and I think, well, I don't know, maybe my job's done. I'm not sure. And I'm still painting a lot. But I'm mostly painting at night and uh, doing other kinds of work. Uh, my other areas of interest. But that, it is interesting. Cuz I feel like these last few years, the artists who, so many incredible young painters, are working in ways that mean something to me.
Sangram Majumdar:Mm-hmm.
Susanna Coffey:And have always meant something to me. But I felt I had to keep my toe in. And, you know, keep teaching. And all of a sudden, wonderful work is coming out into the world. So, in an odd way, I kept going because I, I felt, gee, why are images so gendered? I'm always quoting, you know, that James Baldwin statement about the fantasy of the mind of the Republic. And that fantasy, uh, has always been so toxic and so limiting, so cruel. And so bizarrely limited. Even in the art world. Now, I feel that that is, uh, you know, so many young people are taking up images. Making images that are going right to the heart of, uh, that your unreality.
Sangram Majumdar:Mm-hmm.
Susanna Coffey:Uh, so I haven't been painting myself. And maybe I won't again. I don't know. We'll,
Sangram Majumdar:well, a huge part of so many people you mentioned is the other role of you as a mentor to so many amazing artists that are working right now. I mean, you know, like as I mentioned earlier, like I knew of your paintings, but the other way I knew of you was as a teacher. Like I would hear about, you know, I would be talking to somebody and they would say, Oh, I work with Susanna and you know, you have to meet her. And everything I learned about color, you know, like these phrases would keep coming back. And because you've taught for a long time, you know, I think you, there's this amazing, which I'm beginning to experience also, which is that...
Susanna Coffey:Of course you are.
Sangram Majumdar:New people are coming out that you work with. You know, and they're just, I think you said it in a really nice way, is that they're not afraid. They're not tied by history. Uh, I feel like even when I was student or even when I was starting out, people were attached to it almost like dead weight, you know? So, they couldn't break free of tradition. They couldn't break free of history. Of the, you know, the hero, you know, worshiping and all of these other things that come through. And I feel like painting is such a strange place because of its history, that it's hard to break away from that history, you know? I remember talking to an artist, um, saying she went into sculpture, video and more kind of new media space because it didn't have that many train cars. That is, that you have to, you know, carry with you. The, the baggage was, it was less baggage. But I've always been drawn to the baggage, I guess, you know? But I feel like there is something new to be found in that, in all of that stuff. And you just have to look in different places, you know?
Susanna Coffey:Mm-hmm.
Sangram Majumdar:I like to talk about the idea that like, you have to just dig a hole somewhere else. There's nothing else in some of these other holes, you know? It's been pretty well cleaned out.
Susanna Coffey:That's right.
Sangram Majumdar:I feel like curators now and, are beginning to do that, which is exciting, right? Like, uh, you know, and re and kind of revisiting age old narratives and saying, actually, there's another way to look at this, you know? So, that to me is really exciting. And even with teaching, I feel like that, right? This kind of push to...
Susanna Coffey:yeah,
Sangram Majumdar:...when most of my teachers, or because, I mean, I grew, kind of grew up in the Western can, you know? So, everything I've feel like I've learned that's outside of it, has been self taught. And I mean, I guess you can also argue, most artists are self taught, right? We pick and choose what we want to learn to some degree, right? Maybe that's a huge part of how my, the work has shifted. Okay, this is totally off topic and I'm jumping, and I wanted to use this opportunity to ask you about some things I'm really curious about, Susanna, which is your relationship to dance. I know.
Susanna Coffey:Oh my goodness.
Sangram Majumdar:There's no clear segue into this, but since I've known you, I, you know, I've known, you know, that's a huge part of your life. You travel, you know, like, I'm curious about, like, where did this start, this part of you?
Susanna Coffey:Well, it is, uh, uh, I would say it's the most wonderful part of my life. I, I can't tell you how grateful I am for being introduced as a child to the, um, the company of Alvin Ailey. And I'll, I'll give you the short form. When I was a little girl, I won a scholarship to a ballet school and I love to dance. I think, Oh God, I, I'll, I won't segue too much. I'll, I'll try to make it really, really close. But I, I know that when I was an infant, when my parents, uh, were young, they take me to the jazz clubs on 53rd Street. And my father had many friends that were musicians, uh, jazz musicians. And so, I think in my very early years, uh, music, live music and, uh, music in which, uh, rhythm was actually playing a creative role and a vocal role, an expressive role, not just keeping the beat. So, I think that was in, that was in my crib. And I, I'm very grateful for that. So that later on, uh, when, uh, I was able to take a class with the AI company after, uh, being a baby ball, not a very good baby ballerina, mind you, but I just wanted to dance. And, uh, uh, I discovered the, uh, the African canon and the idea that the concepts that were brought forth in that music, just filled my body and soul with meaning. And an understanding that, uh, that the, I guess reincarnation, you know? I'm dancing, I'm taught by someone that was taught by someone that was taught by someone that was taught years... dance is handed down from person to person in the body. I think as a, as a girl child and, uh, allowed to learn this tradition, it was very transformative to me. And even though I knew I'd never be a professional dancer, I got to see professional dancers. And once I got to, when I was a waitress, wait on Alvin Ailey, God, uh, and it was like, like meeting, uh, you know, meeting one of the great beings. It, it was just learning to me. It was just learning in the most...
Sangram Majumdar:Mm-hmm.
Susanna Coffey:...soul, transforming, generous way. And, you know, I just danced recreationally for a long time, taking classes when I could. But when I was 40 and moved back to New York, I was walking down Broadway during a heat wave. And I heard the drums coming from a dance school nearby. And those of you that knew somebody out there must know Lezly Dance and Skate. And I followed the sound and I found a whole, uh, world of teachers, musicians, dancers. And I just really have never left. And while it's very separate from my painting, I do feel the, uh, what I learn from the music, and of course these classes have live percussion, and so, you know, it's an honor. These drummers and teachers are really imparting to their students is something very important about being alive. Uh, an awareness that, uh, the air is not empty, the air is full. The air you breathe is full. There is no voids. And how you can step into it is one of the stories of that tradition of West African dance. And it's true in East Africa also, but I'm not, I'm less familiar, although I have danced there. So anyway, that's the story. So I'm still doing it.
Sangram Majumdar:Well, I imagine that also probably brought in a whole nother community, or you became part of a comp, another type of a community than the art community or the, you know, this kind of pedagogical thread...
Susanna Coffey:mm-hmm.
Sangram Majumdar:...that you've maintained. Which is another type of community, and I don't know, I was kind of curious about, how has this changed over time for you? I guess a simpler way of asking is, you know, everyone talks about this, but I'll just ask you, which is like, what feels different to you about New York? You know, and the community there? Because there are people you would see and not see as you would go back and forth. And now you're here. And even the other communities, the dance communities,
Susanna Coffey:You know, , i, I'm not a very social person. Although I seem like a social person. I know many people in the, in the dance world, but, uh, I'm, and I know many people in the, uh, art world, but, you know, I prefer to look at work.
Sangram Majumdar:Yeah.
Susanna Coffey:I, I, I don't have time to socialize really. Especially not when I was teaching full time.
Sangram Majumdar:I've seen you dance.
Susanna Coffey:But you know, in my dance world, uh, I, there's so many lessons.
Sangram Majumdar:Well, one body of work that I'm guessing is probably still continuing, I remember from one of the more recent shows of your work, um, where you were making paintings of women in their studios. Artists in their studios. You would be going to their places and sitting with them and working there. I thought that's such a great, it's like a different way of giving back, you know? Also, I was thinking, it's uh, creating an archive. But an archive through a personal contact, you know? And then the painting itself is an archive of marks of a time and place. Especially of the type of painter you are. And is so rich on so many levels. It's also amazing to see how somebody else is in somebody else's space. I remember you talking about, you didn't want to, you wanted to like, in a way...
Susanna Coffey:mm-hmm.
Sangram Majumdar:...disappear. Like not take up too much space.
Susanna Coffey:Mm-hmm.
Sangram Majumdar:Right? The paintings are also smaller, you know, they're handheld in a certain way. And it's like this idea of so much of this, of another universe is arriving from painting to painting, it's another person's universe within that, within that rectangle or surface. So, you know, I just love that group.
Susanna Coffey:Oh, thank you.
Sangram Majumdar:I'm curious, is that, is that, I hope it's continuing.
Susanna Coffey:Oh, that's still ongoing, Adrienne. I have to visit your studio.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Ah, boy, I'd love that.
Susanna Coffey:Oh well, where you we're, I'm holding you to it. Uh, uh, I started it because of the Gagosian show in 1930, uh, in 1930, in 2013, that was the Artist Studio. And it was a fabulous show. You know, art from the Renaissance to the period of now. But I went to that show and you know who was in that show? No women and pretty much all Europeans are European Americans. And so I thought, what, you know, how many people studio could they have gotten for this show? They could have had amazing paintings in that show.
Sangram Majumdar:Yeah.
Susanna Coffey:But the not had, the omissions to me, I thought, well, okay, I'll just, I'll just do it. I'll just paint a artist and there's artists and writers in their studio and fill in the blanks. Uh, so that was how that came about. Could, could you talk a little bit, cuz I, I know that some of the, especially your transitional paintings, had something to do with your daughter.
Sangram Majumdar:Yeah.
Susanna Coffey:And, and your observations of her. And I was very moved by that. I felt that your attention to her and your, that is children never sit still, and you, the kind of renewed...
Sangram Majumdar:right.
Susanna Coffey:...uh, one could say gestural quality, and intensely gestural quality of your recent work, could you talk about that a little bit?
Sangram Majumdar:Sure. Um, I, I, I mean, I, I guess I hinted at that a little bit earlier when I referenced 2016 when Trump was elected and our daughter was born. And I think, one, it kind of like, as I was mentioning, it kind of reframed and like woke me up again in a way to the body in a different way. In a way that was physical, full of movement, full of action. Not as a passive object or a being, you know? I mean it's, it wasn't like a compositional tool or device, you know? As much as those things are part of making images, I cannot, I can't handle, like talking about a figure as a rectangle or as a triangle. I mean, that just is ridiculous to me, when people talk about like negative shapes. I'm like, no, there's a person there. That person has a name.
Susanna Coffey:My God, yes.
Sangram Majumdar:Hello?
Susanna Coffey:I know.
Sangram Majumdar:Like, those are particular people and experiences. Anyway, so like, I think, you know, I was looking for a, a kind of a way to link this kind of daily my life. You know, studio, take care. Studio, take care. You know, like this just became another thing I did. And, you know, when you spend a lot of time doing one thing, it just creeps into your work. I think it was really natural. I didn't really set out, and I don't really think of them as, to be totally honest with you, paintings of my daughter. But more, I guess, uh, in a way it just crept in. I had certain ideas crept in. And the place where it landed was this idea of a body in motion. And then that became this way of thinking about a kind of, a gesture that is full of possibility. And I love the idea that a body can be, exist in a space and possibility of hope moving forward, moving through. Being able to decide, uh, how much or how little they want to be seen.
Susanna Coffey:Mm.
Sangram Majumdar:You know? And I think those ideas began to really link up with my innate or intuitive relationship to the body. Which has always been about both being and not being. Both being here and gone tomorrow, kind of a thing. And I'd never been able to figure out what really drove me to both want to paint the figure and not want to paint...
Susanna Coffey:Mm-hmm.
Sangram Majumdar:...the figure. At the same time, because it was never a formal thing. It's like that thing when sometimes, you wanna talk to people, other times you don't. Like you were saying, you're, people might think you're social, but you, not always, you know? And I think, you know, maybe just speaking in context of how I kind of exist in the world, I feel implicit pressure sometimes to make work along certain lines, you know? Other times I don't. Uh, and I think for me, I wanna have the choice. And I wanted that choice to be present in the painting. Like where a body can exist in the way it wants. In, in, and, part of it is, part of it isn't. So, I think that's where it comes. And I think your, your comment about the gesture is right on. Both, it was this, um, what I started doing was drawing from video stills. Like when people have kids, they have a lot of videos of their kid doing nothing basically. And you know, sometimes I would find something in it that was really interesting. And I just started drawing from them. And, you know, they're like old school, like gesture drawings of a person moving in space. I remember doing that as an undergrad. You know, model moving and you're trying to track that body. But this time it wasn't just anybody. It was, you know, somebody I know. Someone with a name. And so I was looking for particularities and then realizing, actually, that's another way of describing. Like, it's not something that's below a form. But it is the, what should I say? The energy of that form. Right? It's all that you need. And I was thinking like, you know, could I make the painting just with these lines? And, uh, so it really like, opened up my painting vocabulary. My color vocabulary. The subject matter. And what's been really exciting is, bringing them back together. But not in a hierarchical way of like, this and then this, and this. Like one on top of the other. But adjacent to each other.
Susanna Coffey:Mm-hmm.
Sangram Majumdar:You know, in the sense that, archeologically, you know, or even in terms of the places that I've lived or I'm drawn to where, uh, buildings hold histories and bodies hold histories and you know, the old and the new live next to each other. Or you know, a hundred year old brownstone next to a new development. And, uh, those tensions and those anxieties, I feel like are so shared and palpable. It's not something you only experience if you go into a museum. Or you go into a historical site in Rome or India or wherever. But it's just all around us. And, and I think, I'm always aware of time when I'm with my daughter. Uh, I'm aware of time when I'm with my dad. And I think, how do you manifest time physically is something I'm interested in, in the space of painting. Because for me it's a place and a body at the same time. And now there's the body of the painting, and then there's the image of the body aligning itself. I don't know. To me that's just really exciting to think about all those things. And figure out what do I do next? You know, like, okay, now how do I explore this further? So I feel, yeah. I'm just like in it right now.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I'm picking up on a couple things of like this through line. Cause earlier we were talking about disappearing, I think in relationship to Susanna's portraits.
Sangram Majumdar:Mm-hmm.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And then you, Sangram, are talking about being and not being and sort of figure present but not present.
Sangram Majumdar:Mm-hmm.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And this idea of like, and I, I talk a lot at my work about visibility and invisibility as it relates to, um, I, I primarily work with the black female figure. I'm a black female. It's how I exist in the world.
Sangram Majumdar:Mm-hmm.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And I find it interesting that this is sort of this through line that seems to be coming up and you know, I'm gonna bring myself into the group. All three of us...
Sangram Majumdar:Do it. Yeah.
Susanna Coffey:For sure.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:...this idea of who we are in existence to this history, the very weighty history of painting that we talked about before.
Sangram Majumdar:Right.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I also have to insert my own, you know, um, experience of being one of the mentees of Susanna, who was my professor, my advisor in grad school, and the ability of, you Susanna, at that time, grad school is not easy. Like, I was working through my own identity as a painter and needing to paint and needing to like deal with the history of painting. But also being really interested in other things, materials, and like, bringing those into my studio. But feeling really insecure and unsure of whether that was like a valid way to make work. But like the, like validation that you could move out of that space and move back into it was really useful for me. So, to come back to this idea, and that's all just because I felt like I needed to, I needed to sort of like insert my, like gratitude for the mentorship of Susanna. But the, this idea, I'm curious on, on this, your perspectives on like the, I don't know if it's a necessity, but the like, impulse to be and not be in relationship to this long history that's excluded, you know, sort of in the canon, excluded the visibility. The explicit visibility of painters like us. You know, women, people of color. Like we're not the, the canon, the western canon that I, you know, I was taught. That I was brought up with. And so this like playing with like, where we even exist in our own work is I think, really curious.
Susanna Coffey:Uh, I, I think of it, I'm, I, I hadn't ever thought of this word before, reincarnation, before Sangram brought it up. But I think it has to do with the unlived dreams of our for bearers. I think that, uh, other aesthetic moves, whether it's painting, sculpture, food, dance, whatever, I, I think that it needs doing. Somethings need doing that are not done. And it, it is now the time to do them when you can. And there's something like a, a drive that, uh, I mean that it needs doing because not everything has been done. Not everything has been said. There's a lot that lives but has not been spoken about. And we all know what happens with secrets. I think, you know, and artists often are those who come forth and say, it was secret, but it is not gonna be secret anymore. And now we can see it. We can hear it. We can read it. We can taste it. That legacy, I mean, it, it is an odd way to think about it. And I, I won't talk too long about this, but Marcuse talks about this a little bit in Eros and Civilization. And I'm always repeating this, but I, I will again, that in the aesthetic dimension, time is not destructive. In regular lifetime, destroys lasting gratification. And so if I keep my coffee for two weeks or my, you know, crackers, they'll be disgusting and moldy. But in the aesthetic dimension, I can go to Tayutay Wacan. And it's several thousand years old and it gratifies somewhat in the way that, uh, the, uh, makers wanted. In the case of dancing, you're dancing basically with the teacher several hundred years ago. Who's this lineage of people teaching certain classical dances. And, uh, it changes over the years. But it's still the same canon. And my new teachers say, Baba Karam reinvigorates the tradition. Uh, because there's some things in the dances that didn't exist before and need to now. And Sangram, I think that's true, really true, uh, in everything you were saying about, you know, reinvigorating your work and finding ways to let the present manifest. And that is the immediate present for you. And the social presence. And also thinking about your infancy in another country.
Sangram Majumdar:Mm-hmm. I mean, it may have been a long time ago on the clock. But there's certain things that live inside you. And I think when you talked about the festival, I thought, oh, that's alive.
Susanna Coffey:Mm-hmm.
Sangram Majumdar:That is still alive.
Susanna Coffey:Mm-hmm. And needs to be in the world.
Sangram Majumdar:Yeah. I mean, I think, Adrienne, your, your question or proposition of, I guess you're talking about the responsibility, right. That we feel we have as makers in the world now, right? And I guess I feel the most responsibility to make exactly what I want to make. Regardless of both adjacent or external expectations, you know? So if I think about expectations that might be coming fire, and I think social media definitely flattens it because things become simplified in many ways. But I don't know. I mean, I, I guess I think that there are more than one ways to be present in the world. I'm already, in a way, making work. And I don't know if the work also has to have an image of me or what, or person of color, in a way that also already exists. I mean, that's the other thing I think a lot about. Like, there's so many people making work now. Which is amazing, who are people of color. So, to me that's like, creates room, hopefully, for different ways of approaching that, right? It's not like, oh, the, everyone has to make the work this way. Because that just flattens experience again and becomes like a canon. And it's like, you know, if you are of this type, you should make work of this type. And it, I think there's external and internal pressures to both present yourself as most belonging, you know? And there are times I don't really feel like, I'm not real. Like, I'm faking it. I'm on so many levels. Like, you know, faking it as a teacher. I'm faking it as an artist. I'm faking it as, as, uh, a parent. Like, I don't know what I'm doing. But I do think those questionings are important because they are checkpoints. I think it's also way of being vulnerable. You know, I, I do think, um, I don't wanna make work that is a kind of like, cleaned up version of an idealized experience, of myself. Like how I would love to have be. But more about, kind of how things are. And that how things are, are not necessarily a negative. But they're just another way of being, you know? Um...
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I do think that idea of, to sort of clarify, but build on what you're saying, that idea of disappearing or...
Sangram Majumdar:mm-hmm.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:...invisibility or not being that I'm kind of like drawing a third, is actually kind of what you're saying. Of like the presence, like that does exist and is kind of speaking a little bit maybe to that question of responsibility.
Sangram Majumdar:Right.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:But I think the freedom is the invisibility or the disappearing or the like, allowing, like not needing to be or be explicitly in or represented is that space.
Sangram Majumdar:Or how to be, right? Like sometimes we choose to disappear. Sometimes we choose to be part of a group.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:It can be a superpower.
Sangram Majumdar:Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Disappearance is a superpower. Uh, and invisibility, and I think I've said this before, like having the choice to be visible when you want is a kind of like the ideal, like, you know...
Susanna Coffey:mm-hmm.
Sangram Majumdar:...privilege in a certain way, Right? Like, uh, and uh, and in a way we can do that in our work. We control that reality. And I choose to control my reality in that space. Not in an idealized way, but in a way that feels the most real to me. And I do believe that the more voices there are, the more options people of color or all people feel. They, they would see, you know? But thank you for making that connection because it is that valence, that kind of slippage, is something I'm constantly thinking about. You know, the other thing, Susanna, you mentioned food really quickly. And I think food is such a great metaphor. And I'm always talking about food. Because like, if you're eating, at some level, you might be aware, as you're eating, you might be thinking, oh, I'm eating this and it's connected to this tradition. But then I'm eating this. You know, like you go, going back and forth between history and the present moment, you know? So you're disappearing and arriving. You know, whether it's something, you know, Japanese inspired or if it's kind of a family lineage, you know, ama cassi or something, you know, it's like, I feel like food is such a great way to present something that feels authentic. But where the maker disappears. You know, and I guess dance and so many of other disciplines are that way. Where the action continues, but the experience lives in the body of the person experiencing. The in, in our case, it would be the viewer, I suppose. But I, I want part of that. I want some of that in my work where somebody's aware of my heritage, histories, et cetera. But not, I don't want that to be weighing down constantly on them. You know, they can engage with that and see the work through that lens. And maybe you could argue you could never see the work from any other lens. But at the same time, if they forget for a second, I don't want to fault them for that.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I feel like I, unfortunately have to bring us towards our close. Because I, I could listen to this forever and talk to you guys forever. Uh, that's why I was looking forward to this conversation. But the conversation I always end with, or the question I end with is bringing us into the context of the National Academy. And what it means to be a part of this collective of artists and architects for all that that means. And how you guys understand yourselves as a part of it, and the collective as a whole.
Sangram Majumdar:Susanna, do you wanna take that first?
Susanna Coffey:Okay. Well, yes. I'm very grateful. And I'm very grateful to those that elected me. It is the history of, uh, the Academy is both wonderful and not so wonderful. But, uh, oh, I was just reading, uh, about a book on Inness lately, and he was having the same conversations that we often have. So, it has so much potential. And as a community it's really becoming better, stronger, more representative of this moment in US culture and representative society. However, it is the National Academy and not the New York Academy, as we said. And so, uh, I feel very strongly that all of you members, if anyone's listening, that we must really try harder to make it a national academy. And not just a New York Academy. So, you know, it's a both a positive and sort of a, a wish. And really, I think it, if we're gonna call ourselves National Academy, we really need to be a National Academy. And I also want to express my gratitude to the staff. I think the staff has worked so hard to keep the Academy afloat during a rather difficult, and one could say unhoused time. And it has been this wonderful, dedicated, talented, inspired staff that has kept things going. And I wanted to thank you all for that huge and very beautiful, effective effort.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I mean, it's all about you guys. So it's just exciting to be a part of this, uh, this long history and try to like, make those changes and keep it afloat.
Sangram Majumdar:Yeah, I mean, I think I will just pick up on what Susanna said. You know, I'm a fairly recent entry and, and I think the question that I asked a lot initially was like, what does it mean? You know, like, what do I do? Like, you know, how can I be helpful and et cetera? Especially also now, when I became a member, I was in New York. And then like I moved, I moved again. It's like, and moved to Baltimore and then I moved to Seattle. So, definitely not in the tri-borough area or anything like that. So, it's an open question my mind about like, what does it mean to be part of this, you know, other than the honor. Other than knowing that I was elected by artists and peers who I look up to, you know? So, that's something that I would love to work with people on. And I think in order for that to happen, there just needs to be more people that are not in New York that are members, you know? So, because I think it's a pretty skewed demographic for sure. That's just location. There's so many other demographics that are also skewed. And I'm sure that'll change over time. But I think that needs to be actively engaged with for sure. But yeah, I think the Academy needs to decide if it's going to be an, kind of a hangout place. Uh, which I think historically in the past it was. And, or if it's going to have, take on use some of this agency in a way that positions itself as something much more visible and participatory, you know, in the world. Because I think there's room for it for sure. And I think, you know, I feel like other people are talking about that in the National Academy. I've heard other people speak about this. So I'm not gonna go, go on that tangent anymore. But I would love to participate in ways that is, that I can. I was on the membership committee for a while and I could never make the meetings because the meetings would always happen at times when I was teaching. Uh, so I'm, we are, I'm dealing with the three hour time difference. Uh, and, but that's, that's a small, that's a small issue. There are other ways, I'm sure things could be addressed. You know, but I do wanna quickly say at this project that you started, Adrienne, last couple years during the Covid and all of that. I think it's not a small thing. And I think it's the big thing. And I think it's, it brings people like Susanna and me together to talk in a way that maybe we don't speak. And people who may not know each other. So, I hope it continues and, and, uh, so thank you for being part of this. And doing this.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Well, thank you. Because I, I, Anjelic and I talk all the time about how like, we, this is just, it's so much fun for us to do. Like this is, we have a chance to do this all day, every day if we could. So it's really like, it was a no brainer for me. Just had to figure out how to actually make a podcast happen. But the conversations bit, the idea that the podcast is like, at least a small element that allows us to be National. That we can have this conversation from Seattle to Connecticut to New York. And you know, we've been able to engage people in LA and you know, we're in Chicago. And we're not, we're not just exhibiting space in New York that only the New York members get to experience.
Sangram Majumdar:Right, Right.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:But then this can help us be national.
Sangram Majumdar:Totally.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:We're using the covid experience and technology dependence to our advantage. So, I really appreciate you guys participating. And yeah, I could listen to you talk all, all day. So it was really such a pleasure. Any other last, you know, parting thoughts or?
Sangram Majumdar:I'm, I'm, I'm loving the light that's just, uh, I mean, you all won't see this because it'll be audio. But I'm just gonna say there's like this light cutting through, uh, in Susanna's studio that's hitting the left side of her head. And looks like it's from a skylight. And like, I feel like there's a Susanna painting, there's a painting there. It's like this glow of light, um, you know.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:It is, it is a beautiful sight.
Susanna Coffey:Thank you guys so much. I so appreciate how much help you gave us and, and, uh, you know, first of all, the project alone, but it's really, I really, thanks. It's really great. And Sangram, it's so great to see you.
Sangram Majumdar:It's, same here.
Susanna Coffey:And it's all orange over there.
Sangram Majumdar:Oh yeah.
Susanna Coffey:With that blue microphone
Sangram Majumdar:I know, and my plywood and I don't even, I don't even know what the hell's...
Susanna Coffey:There's a painting.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And I love that the painters are like framing up.
Susanna Coffey:I know.. Sangram Majumdar: Uh, Yeah, thanks so much. It's really great.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Okay. I won't take any more of your time.
Sangram Majumdar:Bye everyone.
Susanna Coffey:Thank you.
Sangram Majumdar:Bye. Bye Anjelic.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Thank you so much.
Susanna Coffey:Bye.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Okay, bye. You're listening to Exquisite Corpse.
Anjelic Owens:Aw, that was so sweet. Honestly.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I mean, it was just, I didn't, I didn't wanna stop hearing them. It was so hard to stop the conversation.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah. They really had like a nice flow and their connections seemed really effortless. It definitely seemed like the conversation pivoted between them, like in a balanced way. And they, each time it had like deeper and deeper, like, introspective questions.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah. I felt like there was just such a clear mutual respect. It was just palpable to see how much they admire each other, respect one another. And I think that I, the questions, those very specific questions come out of when people know each other and their practice really well.
Anjelic Owens:Definitely. Like what do you feel like resonated with you the most listening to this?
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Uh, so many things. I love the way they talk about painting. I mean, just like, the terms and like the way they're, they're talking about the compositions and how they're thinking about it and moving through it and...
Anjelic Owens:Mm-hmm.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Did you hear it? Like, this investment in a material, that thing that really like gets me back into painting?
Anjelic Owens:Yes. Honestly, it was really helpful just hearing how you talked about painting in your own, like, uh, investment in the material. And just the different approaches that you can take with painting. And so I definitely was taking some notes. You know, it was like terms like gesture and the importance of emulating gesture and manifesting time as a body. It was a lot of deep things and so, um, it was really interesting, honestly.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah, I mean, the way they acknowledged the weightiness of painting was so spot on to what I was talking about before I mean, really illuminating that period of time in grad school where I just, I stopped painting. I moved away from it to explore the materials. Because there's so much there and it's really hard to take that on when you're figuring out who you are as an artist. But I just loved how they talked through all of these different
Anjelic Owens:ideas. I also was thinking about something.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:What's that? What were you thinking about?
Anjelic Owens:Um, I just really vibed with when you brought up the invisibility visibility aspect of the conversation. I don't know, I just think like, especially as an artist of color, sometimes there's this unnecessary expectation, you know, of the type of work that you can create. I don't know. I think for myself specifically, like I really love abstract expressionism and sometimes it can be perceived as not black art. But actually, uh, I went to the Independent this past weekend and I saw this really great abstract work and I actually found out that it was by a black artist, Joe Ray. And I think it just like, really just reemphasized the importance of creating without bounds. And just knowing that how we operate as artists of color is not indicative of our, our identity per se, you know? And it's really important for us to, to remain open-ended with our, with our practice and to not feel like we have to categorize something so early. But just knowing that, as we continue to grow and like develop our visual language, that these things will come naturally.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah, I mean, the thing is, any artist that is essentially not white, straight, cis male is, in some point of their career experiencing somebody expecting something of their work based on their identity. And it's an unfair pressure. And there should be more openness to what we can make. But I think in response to that pressure, artists intentionally, unintentionally, consciously, subconsciously, play with these ideas of how present they are physically or visibly in the work. How present their identity is in the work. So when we were speaking and I was recognizing that there was this like idea of disappearing or invisibility in Susanna's work and Sangram's work and my work, there's also this like commonality that there's expectations from a woman, from a man of color, from a woman of color, to present themselves in their work in a certain way.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And there's an ability to subvert that expectation by removing yourself or playing with your visibility and your invisibility. And using invisibility as a superpower to...
Anjelic Owens:Yeah.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:...sort of create a different conversation. Or more space for more conversations within the canon and within the space that you wanna create work.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah, I mean, I think taking back that power is so important. And I feel like even just looking at both of their practices, like, for Susanna to be doing these self-portraits in such a like, really intentional way. And then for Sangram with like his, his work of like, removing the individual. But like, having these layers of texture and like little details. Like, it is interesting to see that relationship between both of them.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah. And I, and I, one of the reasons why in mid conversation I wanted to sort of course correct to clarify my question, is because I don't think it's about a responsibility to have the conversation. It's...
Anjelic Owens:Yeah.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:It's about creating space to have whatever conversation you want.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah. That freedom is critical. Yes. Adrienne, you know, I'm just coming with the questions, okay? We're just gonna keep the ball rolling.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Come at me, come at me.
Anjelic Owens:So, honestly I thought, um, that I knew where you were from. And then as we were at Project for Empty Space for our program, and someone asked you that question, you named at least seven different locations. And so it made me think back to Sangram when he was talking about how when he moved from Baltimore to Seattle, how that had an impact in his work. And so you being a nomadic queen yourself.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:My nomadic self.
Anjelic Owens:Yes, of course.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Moving every, every couple years.
Anjelic Owens:Just bopping around town in the world. Uh...
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Professional mover.
Anjelic Owens:Yes. I was wondering, like, did that, does your work have a similar, um, impact as you were, as you were moving from place to place?
Adrienne Elise Tarver:It's an interesting question cuz I think when you're in the midst of it, you don't recognize how much the move or the place is impacting your work. But there are a couple examples I can think about. One was moving to Sydney. And suddenly I'm in this like very lush, tropical environment. But then also there's like a lot of environmentalists in Sydney who like, their main goal is to restore the native plants of Sydney. And you quickly learn, if you ask anybody who's into plants there, that most of these like palm trees and banana plants and stuff aren't native to Sydney. They're not native to Australia at all. And they're brought in. And there's a lot of places like this. And so we have this, um, generic understanding of the tropics because these plants have been, have like migrated around the world through, um, the efforts of colonialism. And bringing, you know, plants and people everywhere that they weren't originally from. And so that kind of lineage and history...
Anjelic Owens:Yeah.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:...got me really interested in that and my work. Particularly, looking at plants and the connection to colonialism and the, the traveling around. So, my work got really green and lush. And that's actually kind of more what people know my work to be. Um, really started when I moved to Atlanta. Atlanta in some ways is like a place of origin for me in that I lived there when I was a kid. My parents actually live there now. They moved back there. My dad's family is from there. And my last name, Tarver, if you do a little research, there's a Tarver Georgia and there's like, it connects back to the history of slavery. There's a plantation. The Tarver plantation.
Anjelic Owens:Oh wow.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:So, suddenly I was in this environment that has this like deep rooted connection to my own origin story and my own personal connections and a real palpable sense of like how that was like changing how I was thinking about my environment. And I made a whole body of work that was maybe the most personal work I've ever made. So there have been these like very real connections to how I've made work based on the environment, the like timing, the situation.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:So, it was really interesting to kind of hear Sangram's relationship to things like the birth of his daughter or politics and how...
Anjelic Owens:Yeah.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:...whether you're trying to or not, these things are affecting you in your work.
Anjelic Owens:Exactly. Yeah. Like, it's interesting to think of when you are making work in certain places and within history itself, they, they kind of like act as like little mar, little markers and as a timeline for your practice, like as they're evolving. But it's like, the work itself is like this little, like bubble of a very specific memory or experience. And how, I don't know, it is a really interesting thing to see, to see them looking at them from the end of like the continuation, the progression.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And I think, on, along those lines of like, looking back at it, you're, you're not necessarily realizing it's happening at the time. But what they talked about too, is this idea of like, letting the work take you where it needs to take you. And that's something that like, not just...
Anjelic Owens:yes.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:...like I think, um, Bill and Francis talked about this as well, just kind of like letting the work, like investing in the work and letting the work move you through. And then, you kind of look back and recognize that this is what was happening. The environment and the situations and everything changed the work. But you were just responding to what you felt like needed to happen in the work.
Anjelic Owens:Yes. You're responding to the times. And I think that's something like really important to think about as artists. I really feel like artists, they tell the truth. Especially when it comes to history and how it is remembered. And even that, as artists, it is a radical act of like, how we retell history and remember it. And so, I think that's really powerful.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:So, this has been a really fun episode. I mean, for me, uh, I'm a painter. This is like all up in my painter world. Uh, how's it for you?
Anjelic Owens:Yes. No, I think it was an interesting opportunity to learn more about the painter's world. And I definitely learned some new adjectives and, uh, sentences that I can regurgitate in further openings.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:impress, impress the other viewers. So why don't you tell us a little bit about what's up next on the podcast?
Anjelic Owens:Sure. So, we're super excited. This is our second, second chain link conversation with, uh, artist and architect. And so we're having artist, Mary Miss and Architect Jeanne Gang. And yeah, it's a really fun, we're happy to have Mary Miss back and excited to have you guys experience this conversation.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah, I love all the episodes where we get to cross pollinate between the architects and the artists. Thanks for joining us, everybody. Anjelic, thanks for being here and helping make this even more fun.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah, thank you for having me.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:This conversation was recorded on September 14th, 2022. Exquisite Corpse is written and produced by Adrienne Elise Tarver and Anjelic Ownens and co-produced, mixed and edited by Mike Clemow and Wade Strange at SeeThru Sound.
