Exquisite Corpse: Contemporary Conversations
Exquisite Corpse: Contemporary Conversations is a podcast series from the National Academy of Design featuring conversations between National Academicians. This podcast is a space for the artists and architects who have shaped this institution to connect, discuss, and ask questions of each other. National Academy Director of Programs and Series Host Adrienne Elise Tarver takes you into the organization that is contending with its almost 200-year history and finding its place in the 21st century.
Exquisite Corpse: Contemporary Conversations
Frances Barth NA + William T. Williams NA
In the first episode of Season 3, previous guest Frances Barth chooses to speak with painter William T. Williams. They discuss their 50-year friendship, reminiscing about influences and interactions throughout their accomplished careers like working at Skowhegan, being neighbors, and their shared communities of artists. They discuss the mentors that were a part of their artistic development and how they help students and the next generation develop their own work. In the growing age of social media and miscellaneous distractions, both National Academicians share their advice for emerging artists to remain centered and focused.
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Welcome. I'm Adrian Elise Harver, the host of the National Academy Podcast, Exquisite Corpse. This podcast is a series of conversations between artists and architects. Who've been elected by their peers, to the National Academy of Design for their extraordinary contributions to art and culture in America. These are the national academy mission and they are at the core of the oldest artist run organization in the United States. And this season I'm joined by a very important member of our podcast team. Actually, she does most of the behind the scenes work in logistics, our National Academy Programs Assistant, Anjelic Owens.
Anjelic Owens:Hey.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:This is Exquisite Corpse. Okay, so welcome, Anjelic, to the side of the podcast.
Anjelic Owens:Thank you. Thank you. Happy to be here.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:So, we've been working on this podcast for, I mean, I guess I've been working on it for over a year and a half. You've been working on it for like about a year.
Anjelic Owens:Almost. Oh wait, literally, yeah, because I started in September of last year and we're basically in September. Let's be real.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:We're almost at your work anniversary. Happy anniversary.
Anjelic Owens:Wow. I like flowers, just FYI.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Okay. I'll keep note of that. Um, so. A year of working on this, a year and a half of working on this, we've learned a lot. We've worked with a lot of artists through all the tech difficulties. Lots of learning processes. And I'm really excited to have you on the side of the mic with me so we can really bring people into what we do every week.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And to let them see your sparkling, witty personality.
Anjelic Owens:Adrian. It is really you, to be honest. But you know, we compliment each other.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:But now, I think it'll be interesting to bring a little bit of that departmental brainstorm meeting side onto the podcast. Because we really debrief every time after a conversation.
Anjelic Owens:Mm-hmm.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Like, there's a lot of like, oh my God, that was so great.
Anjelic Owens:Or like, do they really just say that?
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Uh, so one of the things we started to establish early on as an organization was confronting and being really honest and transparent about our history. We're almost 200 years old and anything that's almost 200 years old has a lot of blemishes. So we created this historical acknowledgement. And thinking about things like land acknowledgements in the way that organizations were taking a more self reflective look at, like, where they're operating and what that means for the history of their organization and, uh, the history of this country. And we are an American organization specifically looking at American art and artists and architects. And it felt like the biggest blemish on our history was the omission of various artists and architects. So, the ones that many people have left out through history, POC, indigenous, LGBTQIA. Just representation was not exactly at the forefront of the minds of the original members. And in an institution like this, and as art moves through history, the type of work actually wasn't super represented either. So it was a pretty limited view of what fine art and architecture was. So, we developed this historical acknowledgement and last season, we started to bring in other members of staff to read it. Since this isn't just about my view and isn't just about on Anjelic's view, this is the view of the entire organization. We're all on board with this idea. So, here is our historical acknowledgement.
Nakai Falcón:Hi, my name is Nakai Falcón and I'm the Executive Assistant at the National Academy of Design. The National Academy of Design was initiated by artists and architects to fill a void in the American artistic landscape of the 19th century. But we recognize our history has excluded many communities and cultures whose lineages and practices must be included in this country's art historical cannon. Indigenous peoples, people of color, queer and non-binary individuals and people with disabilities. We are committed to a process of dismantling the ongoing legacies of settler, colonialism, and white supremacy. We are excited to move forward and have conversations that reflect the important questions and issues of today. We are the National Academy of Design and you are listening to Exquisite Corpse.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:One of the things I think is really. Great about bringing you in to this side of the podcast is you do so much invisible labor for this podcast. Like these things don't just happen and people are at, you know, on mic immediately. To that point, being on mic is also not as simple, which...
Nakai Falcón:Mm-hmm.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:...Anjelic works to schedule some tech sessions. Which again, engages our amazing editing team. And so there's a lot of prep to get to where we are. And, only there's like been little snippets, the, uh, Rick Mayew conversation of the on the moon...
Richard Mayhew:It's like I'm on the moon somewhere. Well, anyway.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah. Dotty Attie and Pat Lasch when Pat was singing...
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah.
Pat Lasch:I love you. I love you in the morning and in the afternoon. I love you in the evening and underneath the moon...
Adrienne Elise Tarver:So there's, like, little snippets we've been able to, like, give you, audience, what some of those, like, behind the scenes, like, other extraneous parts are. But we'll, we'll give you a little more insight into the whole process, I think throughout, throughout this season and ongoing. So, this episode, I'm gonna ask you to tell us a little bit about what's special about this outreach and sort of the, the chain that we were able to continue? Like what what's happening this episode?
Anjelic Owens:Yeah, no, the season we're really pumped about activating the second chain of Exquisite Corpse. And so, typically we ask an artist or architect if they wanna interview someone. And then from there, they have that conversation. And then after that conversation, they're invited again to ask another individual. So, this is our official second chain link. Like, what's like, what do we call it? Like...
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I know for anybody who's made an exquisite corpse, usually on paper, so we keep calling it a chain. It's like, and we're mixing metaphors. So the second...
Anjelic Owens:Telephone...
Adrienne Elise Tarver:...the second fold of the paper?
Anjelic Owens:Yeah. Okay. I love that. The second fold of the paper, this is our, this is kind of like the premise of this season. And so, we're really excited to invite Frances Barth back to be in conversation with William T. Williams.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah. So Frances was really excited to come back and I think that's actually, thinking about the sort of idea of the podcast, originally was just to give an opportunity for artists to speak with, and architects, to speak with who they wanna speak with. And so, when somebody's selected, for them to realize they have that opportunity now, I think it's really nice to see how exciting that is for them. That they...
Anjelic Owens:Mm-hmm.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:...have the opportunity that brought them into this. And then, that excitement is really fun to see. And the relationships are really fun to see. And how those relationships are revealed.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah. I mean, if anything, not to pat ourselves on the back, but it's like, clearly they enjoyed themselves. So, it's like, they wanna come back and talk some more. So, that's always nice to see.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:That's always really nice. Yeah.
Anjelic Owens:So yeah, it was crazy like for William T. Williams, like I was familiar with his name. But I actually wasn't able to do like a deep dive until this episode.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I mean, we had done some, we had done some previous programs with him. But he's really an incredibly influential artist through, you know, decades. And not just the work. Not just the work he's making in his studio. But just, you know, this industry that we're in. Which is this like education, mentorship, emerging artist kind of space where he developed the studio museum residency. Which is so influential. Every black artist in the country pretty much applies for that every year. And that was his proposal. He came up with when he was at Yale, um, where he went for his MFA. He got his BFA at Pratt. And he led the Skowhegan School of Painting and Sculpture for years. So, that's where the relationship with Frances comes in. And Frances, who has her own super decorated career, has taught at so many prestigious institutions. Has had, you know, a list of extremely prestigious exhibitions and awards. But has this other incredible life and background as a filmmaker, but also in dance. Which we were able to learn a lot more about during her previous conversation with Lorraine Shemesh. Which for you audience, who haven't heard that one yet, please go back to our archives and listen to that one from season two. So, it was just this really incredible meeting of the mind of these two really accomplished artists who've known each other for 50 years, connecting, reconnecting reminiscing. So, let's hear this conversation.
Frances Barth:Hi, my name is Frances Barth. I have a studio in North Bergen, New Jersey. Um, I was born in New York city. I don't know what else to say. But I've got what was an embroidery factory. So, my husband and I live here. He's an actor. He has a voiceover booth in my painting racks. And, uh, we live downstairs.
William T. Williams:Uh, my name is William Thomas Williams. I was born in North Carolina. Uh, and presently in Connecticut. And I'm a painter.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Thanks so much. Well, thank you both for joining. As I start every podcast, I reach out, and actually I wanna point out, I'm really excited for this particular conversation. Not just because of you two, and I admire you both so much, but because this is the first of our next link in the chain for the Exquisite Corpse. As we know, the Exquisite Corpse is a series where artists create and build off of the next thing. And so Frances participated in an episode with Lorraine Shemesh. And now we've asked, uh, Frances to select somebody that she would like to speak with. And Frances you chose William T. Williams. Could you please let us know why you chose him?
Frances Barth:Um, for a number of reasons. A funny reason, is that for a period of perhaps 50 years, right? Um, I, Bill and I would kind of bump into each other down in the Broadway Soho area. And we would have these short conversations. And, it's almost like a book by Andre Bertone where I never get to have like any closure with a conversation. You know, they used to make jokes all the time that when painters ran into other painters down in Soho back in the sixties and early seventies, it could be four o'clock in the morning and somebody would say, oh, oh, I just took a walk cuz I'm painting. It was like, everybody didn't do anything else but paint. And, if they were painters. And then I, I had a more, more lengthly meeting with Bill when he was the, the Director of Skowhegan. And this was such an unusual occurrence because it was all women. And somehow I ran into Al Held on Prince Street. And Al Held said that they didn't realize they had chosen all women to be there that year. And then they tried to figure out how could they change this? Because they didn't really want all women. And then they couldn't change it because they'd sent out the offers already. And then Bill was the Director. So , it was a, a kind of amazing, strange combination of Bill as the Director, and, and I guess it was five women. Yeah, so, that was a very important summer for me. And Bill and Pat, I had never been treated really well as an artist. And I remember driving, you know, I just drove in the one day, so it took many hours to get up there. And when I got there it was nighttime. And I opened the door to this cottage and there were all these flowers on the table. Which was just dumbfounding to me. And a refrigerator that had food in it in case I didn't wanna have to eat breakfast with everybody the next morning. And, um, it, it was a great summer. It was a kind of change of my life because my married life was falling apart. And the people that I hung out with were all these great women. And, and Bill and Pat. And Bill, I remember told people that the students couldn't bother us in our studios. That we only had a certain amount of time that we were supposed to be going to studios every day. But that we were also there to just do our own work. So, um, I thought it would be, it'd be great to finally have a sit down and get to know Bill more than all of these meetings out in the streets of New York.
William T. Williams:Thank you.
Frances Barth:And I saw Bill's first show. So I walked into Reese Palley and I saw his first show. And it blew me away. So, it's been a super interesting, watching everything basically that Bill's gone through and done for the last 50 years.
William T. Williams:Well, one of wonderful things, we used to live across the street from each other. So this is like a 50 year reunion as well.
Frances Barth:That's right.
William T. Williams:It's kind of nice. And I do remember the summer. And one of the things that I do remember is, um, the extraordinary group of artists. A great summer in terms of the students. But also a great summer in terms of watching the interaction of the students and the faculty. And having the enjoyment of not having to be involved, but I could just watch and learn and, and listen. And it was a great summer for me as well. And for my family.
Frances Barth:Nice. I spend a lot of time with Lois Dodd. Poor Lois was subjected to my trying to get her to tell me how life works. And so, and Lois had a cottage right on the lake. And I remember, like, we would just kind of spend the evenings together and I'd say, you know, and it was funny cuz it was a throwback to when I was in school. And I actually, uh, way before that, when I tried to call Lee Krasner Pollock to ask her how she managed to be a woman and a painter. Because you know, there was so much turmoil back then. And I just kept a low profile. Because then I could just do whatever I wanted. And it didn't occur to me that nobody ever wanted to talk to me. The guys didn't wanna talk to me. So, here we were, and it was Agnes Denes and Lois Dodd and Susan Shatter and Lynda Benglis was there. But she didn't hang out with any of us. And I, I may be missing one person. Or maybe that was it. Uh, but I sent Bill and Pat a picture because I actually found a picture of us at a crit out in the fields. And of course we were all young. And it, it was, it was just always amazing, you know, to be learning things and seeing things and seeing what each other was doing.
William T. Williams:Well, you know, the wonderful thing is Lois Dodd and I, um, Lois lives about two blocks in my studio in New York. And we would, I would pick her up in the morning because she was teaching at Brooklyn college, as well.
Frances Barth:Huh.
William T. Williams:So for probably 35 years, we rode back and forth to Brooklyn college. Um, a really gentle soul. Great painter.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:Doesn't talk very much. That's the other thing I learned about Lois, you know, there's a...
Frances Barth:She can be pushed...
William T. Williams:I never tried.
Frances Barth:...especially. Oh God. She used to have canvases strapped to trees all over Skowhegan. Even, and like, even in the rain, right? She would go back to certain locations where her canvases were hanging on trees, right? And depending on the weather, depending on the light. And, uh, she was just remarkable, like that.
William T. Williams:A wonderful lady.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:That summer, it's, the other thing is, uh, Sue Shatter and I had been classmates...
Frances Barth:oh, I didn't know that.
William T. Williams:...uh, years before. So there were three of the five of the women I had known, uh, for considerable amount of time.
Frances Barth:Ah.
William T. Williams:Uh, so that was also, you know, kind of a. Wonderful kind of aspect to it.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:But watching the interaction between the two and the temperaments and how all of that worked out in terms of, uh, their interaction with students. And with each other, that was also kind of really enjoyable. A great, really a great summer. A historical summer as well. Because the, uh, the...
Frances Barth:It's the only time, yeah?
William T. Williams:It is the only time in the history of the school that it's been an all women faculty. Uh, I think it changed the school for the better, in terms of the school didn't collapse. It didn't, uh, do any of that. The students were well, well treated and learned a great deal. And I think, at that time, the board was pretty male dominated, to say the least, in terms of the years. And I think that was a turning point, in terms of, um, a lot of people's realization that women had been unrepresented on the faculty.
Frances Barth:Mm-hmm.
William T. Williams:And that there were, uh, lots of women that were extraordinary teachers that were out there. And there had to be an alternate voice as well. There were other voices and other ideas out there. But that's another story. That's a...
Frances Barth:Well, it also came at a time of all kinds of revolt, right? Uh, and, uh, protests. And, and that, that maybe it after it's, it's kind of winding down by then. Because it was 1979, I think.
William T. Williams:Mm-hmm.
Frances Barth:Yeah. But I also wanted to get you on the spot. Because I went to a talk that you gave, and I don't remember the year, I thought it might have been a Cooper Union. And you showed up at the podium with a guy on either side of you. Like they were your bodyguards. Am I completely fantasizing this or did that really happen?
William T. Williams:There were probably two young students. At that point, I had, um, two kids that I was mentoring and that wanted to be artists. And they would come on the weekends to the studio and, um, learn.
Frances Barth:Huh?
William T. Williams:Uh, both of 'em have gone on to be really successful. One, Michael Davids started Bad Boy Studios. Which eventually became Motown Animation with Motown Records.
Frances Barth:Oh, nice.
William T. Williams:And they are still going. The company is still going. I'm very happy that I had a little to do with getting them on the road to becoming artists and being extraordinarily successful. And that's probably who was standing next to me. And trying to get them to have confidence in who they were and what they wanted to do and they could do it. Milestone, that was the name of their, uh, the company it's called Milestone.
Frances Barth:Nice.
William T. Williams:And they are still in existence on the West Coast.
Frances Barth:Nice.
William T. Williams:Another thing about them, DC comics produced their first comic. They were really kids that were into comics. And then became business people. And, uh, the first comic book DC had ever produced by African Americans was their comic book.
Frances Barth:Wow.
William T. Williams:And then they evolved into animation with Motown Records.
Frances Barth:Terrific.
William T. Williams:And they did, uh, early animations, I think of, like, Michael Jackson and some of the other, other groups that Motown was handling.
Frances Barth:Huh.
William T. Williams:But that's another story. But we go back to being in France together also in the south of France.
Frances Barth:Oh, at the, um, Fondation Maeght.
William T. Williams:Yes. Yes. Very much so that summer.
Frances Barth:Oh, wow. So why don't you tell what that summer was.
William T. Williams:Well, that summer there was an exhibition produced by, um, Dore Ashton, the art critic, and her selection of artists. And she invited some of the artists to come to the south of France. And I, and my wife traveled to south of France. And it was an extraordinary exhibition. With controversy, but a terrific exhibition. And for me it would, it was the first time I had traveled out of the US as well. Huh. So, there were, it turned into an extended trip for us, stopping in England, going to Holland, going to Belgium and, and then eventually spending that, uh, weekend in South of France.
Frances Barth:Wow. They put us up Dore or, and, and the Fondation Maeght put us up in a worker's vacation complex. I don't know if you were there.
William T. Williams:Yes, I was.
Frances Barth:Right? And, I mean, it was, I, I had never also experienced anything like this before. And for me, it was great. It was, everything was so organized. It was kind of like a Catskills, big camp. But you got all the food. There were big family tables. I remember it was the first time I'd ever seen, um, a shower that just went onto the floor. Right? It just had a drain in the room of the bathroom. So, that everything got wet. But the shower drained through the floor. And it was great. There were two artists who were in that show who refused to speak, to stay there. And, it was really funny because they were sort of Marxist activists. But they would not be in this worker's camp. And they demanded to be put in more expensive places. So, it was, and why there was controversy that Bill mentioned, was at the opening, it was, um, Louise Bourgeois and Dore Ashton, who on the opening, made it a public accusation against America for their involvement in the Vietnam war. So, it embarrassed any of the American participation, I guess, but through the government, if the, if it had anything to do with this Fondation Maeght show. But it was an amazing show. And it was, it was mostly men in the show. But it was people who were not that known at the time, you know? So, it was Dore Ashton also taking a, a real leap in terms of who she put in this show. And it was fantastic. So we had a good time.
William T. Williams:We did. And I think for me, I got to understand impressionist paintings better. Because of being there, seeing the light. Seeing the, uh, uh, the landscape and then thinking about the paintings. When I left, I clearly understood that part of art history a lot better.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:And I had a birthday party there, as well.
Frances Barth:Oh, I didn't remember that.
William T. Williams:Which was terrific. We were there overlapping my birthday and Dore gave me a birthday present. Which was a wonderful party.
Frances Barth:When is your birthday?
William T. Williams:Uh, my birthday is in July.
Frances Barth:Yeah, mine too.
William T. Williams:Yep. July 17th.
Frances Barth:Huh?
William T. Williams:There are a lot of overlappings.
Frances Barth:Yeah. Yeah.
William T. Williams:But things have been good. Things have been very good.
Frances Barth:Things have been, they, well, they were kind of, things just used to happen. Uh, or I, or else I'm completely fabricating this because I'm so naive. But people just like, oh, let's have a, a talk through a podcast, right? I don't recall such extreme networking. Things were much more fluid. Like, you'd meet somebody on the street and you'd say, oh, let me go see your work. What are you doing? And then these things would happen. Like, Dore would do a show and she'd choose all these people. Barbara Rose would do the, the show and I didn't know Barbara Rose. And she would go to an artist studio and say, give me five or 10 other artists. I should just go to their studio, right? And she would do that. And then I would be in this show. Or, I mean, it just was, well, also, it was a much smaller art world. And it was, everybody was mixing together. And so it was exciting intellectually and you would go see dances and you would go see performances that were unusual. Everybody was sort of inventing things. And that, that was very, very special.
William T. Williams:Hmm. Well...
Frances Barth:No, not for you?
William T. Williams:Uh, I stayed my studio because I have this idea that making the work was far more important than showing the work. But what I wanted on doomsday when I left...
Frances Barth:Right.
William T. Williams:...is there be a body of work with no excuses. I can't say I didn't have enough time. I didn't have enough money.
Frances Barth:Huh.
William T. Williams:Here's what I did.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:Now you can judge me. Now you can look at all of this and do what you want with it. But I gave it my all and that's been my attitude. You know, I, after 1971, I didn't go to openings or museum galleries, whatever it was. I just stayed in my studio.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:And that was advice from, from Beardon who said to me that painting was an old man's game.
Frances Barth:Huh.
William T. Williams:And I took that to mean that you need to work and hopefully you get better with age. You get a little sharper in terms of what you're doing in what you're thinking about. And Kynaston McShine, who was a curator at the Museum of Modern Art, said something to me that also stuck in my mind. He said that careers are not made at cocktail parties.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:And that stuck in my mind, the idea of there has to be a good use of your time if you want to be an artist.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:That it's nice to do a lot of the social stuff. But paintings are not made that way.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:And certainly paintings that can speak to the time, speak to the, the, uh, human events are not made that way. Styles or careers may be made that way. But if we're talking about something that's a little more substantial in terms of a cultural input, that requires a great deal of thought, time, trial and error. And that's pretty much been my philosophy in terms of the art world.
Frances Barth:Uh, I think that was pretty much everything like that in the seventies. It changed in the eighties. And I mean, when I went to school, the major philosophy was existentialism. That you just worked. And that's carried me pretty much through my whole life.
William T. Williams:Mine is a blue collar experience, you know? That's, that's what I came out of, is the idea of hard work.
Frances Barth:Yeah, me too.
William T. Williams:You know, no excuses. Hard work.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:And nothing's going to be easy if it has something that has lasting cultural meaning, then those things have to be internalized. They're not gonna be learned in school. They're not gonna be learned to cocktail parties. Uh, it has to be internalized. So, just stay in your studio and do what you do.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:I didn't, I, I guess, I didn't think, I mean, I went to a convent school and it was all women. So it, I, I didn't have a big, a bigger picture. It wasn't like, for me, being in my studio was my safe place and my, uh, and where I loved being. Right? It, it was away from all the diversions and all, kind of, bad stuff that could happen. And so, the last number of decades of course, have been very puzzling to me. It's one of the reasons why I left New York, because I had a studio that was rent stabilized in, uh, down in Manhattan on Vandam Street. And everybody thought it was crazy that I was leaving there. And I thought I couldn't stay here anymore. And, first I moved to Jersey City. And then, now we're just a little farther north. And it's kind of comparable to you having that studio. I have this big studio and it used to be this embroidery factory and it was very cheap and nobody wanted this at that point. So I mean, for us, it's like my secret garden. And that's just what we do and my, and what my husband does, you know? He's, he does, uh, acting and he does, you know, takes voiceover classes. And we, we've been lucky to live this life, kind of on the edge because, and, but also like you I've, I taught for 50 years. And so here, one of the things, in relation to us talking that I reread, is back in the early eighties, Sidney Tillim, who I taught with at Benington and we used to ride in the car, uh, every week up and back to Benington. Um, he wrote an essay for art forum called the view past 50. And of course we are both way past 50. And , you know, and it was, and so sociologically, right? Like how do you think about everything. And is it different from when you're younger and you're in the midst of all this. And that you just keep at that high level. For more than 50 years, right? In your studio, like what does that view look like? How do you think about it? And, COVID, I guess has really made me think about that. Because we've pretty much been isolated for, for more than two years. We don't go to big things, anything, you know? So, in some ways it's similar to the sixties, in a funny way. Where you are just working and what is getting you up every day to go to your studio? Like what, you have to have that excitement and commitment that you don't lose. Like for all that amount of time. Well, I, I kind of think of myself as a standin. I'm doing the work, but the art itself has a, a separate life. And I'm just a kind of medium getting all that done.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:The, the kind of cultural resources that I've experienced over the years. The artists that have helped me, the musicians, the poets, the, uh, the writers, comedians. I mean, all those people that have come, I've come in contact with. And then they're the everyday people that I've come in contact with. Each one of those has given me something. Each interaction with every human being that I've met has given me something. That's, I, I, I feel is a part of me. And it's up to me to spend my time wisely in terms of the fruit that can come out of their, their gifts to me. And that's the kind of, the way I operate every day is, is, um, it's not just the art world that's been important. But it's, as I say, every person that touched my head on Sunday when I was in, in church, Every, um, hug that I've had my whole life.
Frances Barth:Mm-hmm.
William T. Williams:Every insult that I've, all that's gone into who I am. And hopefully all of that can be channeled into positive energy. And as an artist, hopefully all of that comes out in, in terms of a celebration, you know. Celebrating life. I mean, that's what it's all about for me.
Frances Barth:Yeah, no, I, I think that's also part of our generation. I mean, the convent school thing was, right? For me, that I was an intermediary. In some ways I, I couldn't, I didn't take the credit. But I also didn't take the blame for what I was doing.
William T. Williams:You gotta accept the blame.
Frances Barth:Yeah, I was the intermediary.
William T. Williams:Yeah.
Frances Barth:I was just the intermediary.
William T. Williams:Well...
Frances Barth:And the art, like, it had its own life.
William T. Williams:It's, it's not good to accept the credit. But you have to accept blame.
Frances Barth:I don't mean it as crass as that.
William T. Williams:That's, that's that's the underpinning of civilization. Blame has to be accepted. Credit can be, you know, dismissed.
Frances Barth:Okay.
William T. Williams:But back to painting and back to, uh, the kind of shift in thinking that I think has gone on.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:Uh, the art world seems to be much more diverse in terms of, um, what people are thinking about. What's going into making the work up. Certainly, much more opinions and much more voices. Many, many more voices now. And I think that's really healthy. I mean, you know, uh, it's much more like...
Frances Barth:Mm-hmm.
William T. Williams:...the society itself, in terms of, where, how people are entering the art world. Where they're coming from, a kind of an international view at this point. And things coming from lots of, lots of sources that...
Frances Barth:Mm-hmm.
William T. Williams:When we started in the late sixties, weren't as accessible. Hopefully the art history or the, everything else can catch up with that. But it's a changed place.
Frances Barth:Yeah, no, very much so. Uh, you mentioned, I saw in your, um, interview, one of your interviews, you mentioned Lenny Bocour and, at the same time...
William T. Williams:Mm-hmm.
Frances Barth:...for us, Lenny Bocour was like a, a godfather, in some ways. Right? He, he invented acrylic paint. He made a certain kind of paint before that, especially for Morris Lewis and Lenny and his wife and sometimes his son, used to come to our loft. And we would have meals together. He, Lenny, once a year would give me and my then husband an order form. And you could just pick every, anything you want. Gallons and gallons of paint. What you needed. And he'd have a truck deliver it to you.
William T. Williams:That's correct.
Frances Barth:I know. And it was astounding. And, I mean at one point, he even, I mean, I grew up in the South Bronx in a project. So very working class or lower than working class. And...
William T. Williams:No, I grew up in the projects also.
Frances Barth:Did you?
William T. Williams:Yes. Palaces.
Frances Barth:So, I mean, here was Lenny and, for me, education was just a revelation of a bigger world than what I, the one I had come from. And at one point, Lenny invited us to go see a play on Broadway. And of course now I, I can't tell you. It was the one where the guy is, the movie from it is Rosana. But it's, um, It's, it's a Shakespearean play where the guy is on the side and he's giving the lines to the more handsome man to court the woman on the balcony. So, here we were, I'd never been to a Broadway show before. And Lenny took us. And then he took us out to dinner at like an actor's Broadway kind of restaurant. And so Lenny was, was just the father in some ways that I never had. He was, he was always there. And of course, also with you, I mean, I know that I gave him two paintings. And they're both in museum collections. He would take a work, he would ask for a work and he would actually donate it to a museum. And he was a patron. And for a young artist to have somebody like that who believed in you and even, you know, though you were not well known or, he was taking risks all over the place. But there weren't risks, you know? He just was part of your family. And that was an amazing opportunity to, to not think about things and just paint. Because you had those huge paintings at Reese Palley.
William T. Williams:Yes, I did.
Frances Barth:And of course I had those huge paintings at Susan Caldwell gallery
William T. Williams:Well, you know, my Lenny story.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:Um, when I was a student at Skowhegan, in the, in the, uh, mid sixties, I won the Bocour prize. You know, painting prize. And what it was is, Bocour would give you paint.
Frances Barth:Mm-hmm
William T. Williams:Lenny supplied me with paint, probably for a good 15 to 20 years.
Frances Barth:Yes, me too.
William T. Williams:And like you said, he would just, I would call him up and said I need painting. And he would say, what do you want? You give him a list and the truck would show up the next morning. And, you know, if it was 15 gallons of paint, it would be there.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:And this went on for almost 15 to 20 years. Even more important, if I had a technical problem and called him, he would say come up to the factory. And I would go up and they would go through some stuff and say, well, we got this stuff. We got this stuff. You can try this stuff. This mate will do that. So technically, it was like, I learned more from that experience about painting than I did in terms of classroom exercises and all of that. Just the practicality of, of paint. The other painter that helped me was a painter named, uh, Ernie Briggs.
Frances Barth:Oh.
William T. Williams:And Ernie was making his own paint, as well. And early on, when I was in art school, Ernie, um, took me aside and took me to his studio and showed me how to to kind of make acrylic paint. Grind all of this. And, uh, so between those two, a great deal of my use of acrylic paint, they were really instrumental. And Lenny certainly, in terms of a patron. And that's really the right word. He was really patrons to many, many artists.
Frances Barth:Yes.
William T. Williams:And supportive of many, many artists during that period. We need a thousand Lennys in, in terms of the art world or in the arts in general. And there are people out there that have that kind of spirit and that kind of, uh, belief in the arts. And I always say I've met more good people than bad people in terms of the art thing. So, the arts are, and should be a celebration of the human spirit. You know, that's, um, I always get back to that.
Frances Barth:Mm-hmm.
William T. Williams:But the, you know, there, there are, if we think about the late sixties and artists, you know, and, in lower Manhattan artists were struggling in terms of, what to paint. How to get paint jobs, et cetera. It wasn't a glamorous place or a glamorous life. It was a, um, you're doing this because you're absolutely committed to, to this idea of expression. And as such, there was a, a community. And I think communities of artists are, are kind of worldwide. When I've travel, I've always found it really easy when I've found other artists. There might be language barriers, but somehow either, uh, there's some spirit that it's always over, I've been able to overcome that. You know, when I was in France or Japan, every time there's a, there's a way over it because of the art and because of a, a kind of shared humanity.
Frances Barth:Yeah. I, I, um, at one point when I got the Guggenheim, I went to live in, uh, Holland. First in the north of Holland and then Amsterdam. And I haven't seen, and that's, I guess that was in the seventies sometime. And twice since then, I've reconnected. I mean, we, we emailed each other. But there, there are artists that I met back then that, if we see each other every 20 years, it's like it was yesterday.
William T. Williams:Yes.
Frances Barth:And it's just lovely. I mean, it's just really amazing. So, recently this family came here. Well, they also stayed with us when we were on the Bowery. And, uh, and they were poor and they had a baby. And he was a painter and they lived in the Chelsea Hotel back then. You know, while he was here, and, on another trip. And, it's true. I mean, you kind of keep those relationships for your whole life. Even if you don't see each other very much.
William T. Williams:Yeah. It's hard to think back through all of those, those kind of experiences. But you've also taught for a while, as well.
Frances Barth:Oh, 50 years. More than 50 years.
William T. Williams:Well, think of how many lives you've touched though, over that period of time.
Frances Barth:I have. I don't feel, I don't feel guilty anymore about how much money that they had to pay to go to school.
William T. Williams:Well, you know, some of the kids will go on and be professional artists or do that. And others will be just, uh, people who appreciate the arts.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:And probably pass on some of that spirit to kids and to their own families. So, you know, it's work well done.
Frances Barth:No, it is. And you know, when COVID hit, because I'm emeritus, I used to be the director of one of the graduate schools at, at Mica in Baltimore, they gave me a Zoom account. So, over these last couple of years, I have had, I've hosted online gatherings of every year that I taught to see how everybody was.
William T. Williams:Mm-hmm.
Frances Barth:And it was just marvelous. Like, at one point, uh, one of this, this one woman, who's an artist, she is originally from, uh, Puerto Rico. But she lives on the outskirts of the Amazon forest and her wifi was going in and out. And, but she was part of her year when they graduated. And sort of a catch up of how everybody was. And they were all over the world and what they were doing. And, and it was just really special because we were able to make a community there. I mean, I was lucky, different from, I taught for 18 years at Yale. And Yale was more segregated in terms of media. Right. Cuz sculpture was some, somewhere else in a different building and...
William T. Williams:Right.
Frances Barth:...um, but my school was diverse media. And so they were not in any direct competition with each other because they came in in very different fields. And it was, it was set up like a think tank. So they still help each other. They still have community. They, it's really lovely. So, I don't feel guilty about how much they paid anymore.
William T. Williams:Well...
Frances Barth:They made good lives.
William T. Williams:It would be helpful though, if, and I think Yale is moving toward the arts, kids who, or I shouldn't say kids. People who come into the arts will get free tuition. I think they're moving toward that in the drama school and the music school and the art school. That each, every student will be scholarship students.
Frances Barth:That's amazing if it happens.
William T. Williams:And I think that's a move toward democracy.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:In terms of wanting more diversity within the student body.
Frances Barth:Yeah. That would be great.
William T. Williams:And realizing that, the arts are one of those fields, that's really not about economics. Uh, there is another reason why you have those kind of programs and those kind of schools. And it has to do with, I think, sustaining the, uh, society and expanding the, the, uh, society in terms of, um, the contribution of artists.
Frances Barth:Yeah, no, absolutely. It became harder to do that in most schools because the government, all of a sudden put in regulations of having to justify student loans.
William T. Williams:Yes.
Frances Barth:And, you know, how can you justify that, yes, you will get this art degree and it will give you this much money because you have it. You know, it, this, it doesn't work like that.
William T. Williams:Well, just think now, when you remove that, in terms of, uh, every kid in every project, across the country has a path to that university, if they have the skills and the connections to get there.
Frances Barth:Yeah. No, that that's...
William T. Williams:But the financial burden is not there.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:And that's a pretty extraordinary thing that that's possible.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:Not that it's going to happen. But that it's possible. And being in the realm of possibilities is what sometimes we need. There are lots of new patrons out there, well, uh, as well in terms of supporting artists. And I'm, I'm really enthusiastic about what I see with a lot of the young artists. That they are giving back, starting things in communities, starting things that don't have to do with the galleries and reaching out with, to new voices and new expressions and kind of engaging in areas that, what, 50 years ago were thought to be off limits, in terms of what the artist should and could be involved in. So, hats off to, you know, the young artists as they explored new territory, as well.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I'm really interested in, um, these conversations you guys have had throughout the recording about community and how we've come to this place of sort of contextualizing that with economics. And I'm curious, through your experience seeing the art world over the last decades, you know, the, this idea that it wasn't glamorous before. And it was smaller and there was a community that kind of knew, um, why everybody was in it. Cause it wasn't glamorous. Like you kind of understood, but if you're in it, it's because you love it because you're kind of grinding in the same low, um, not low stakes, but sort of like low economic investment kind of way. Things have changed quite dramatically in the last few decades in the art world, in terms of economics. And how the market has really sort of like pushed this influx. And that there is a lot of glamor and there is a lot of attraction to sort of shiny new objects in, in the art world these days. So, I'm curious about your perspectives on like, seeing these shifts. And I'm particularly interested in, um, you know, Frances, you called this out, and I was thinking about this a little bit before you said it, um, and you were talking about the community, you both don't have studios in New York. And sort of how much New York sort of pulls people into some of the shiny distractions and how much being outside of New York might be a part of sort of maintaining some of those other ideas.
Frances Barth:Yeah. You know, I was born in New York. But I didn't get down to Manhattan until I had graduated high school. It wasn't anything I knew about, right? When I went to school, I drew. Drawing and just being alone was my escape, in terms of who my family was and how I grew up. It was just wonderful for me. And getting into college, which was a city college, which was very inexpensive at the time, even that my par my father wouldn't pay for. And it was $250 a semester. So, I went to work. And I put myself through school. And that just, that was like the, the beginning of a road to, to positivity and amazing things, and learning. And I mean, going and seeing paintings and crying because of their beauty. You know, it's like, how did anybody get to do that? I mean, and going on pilgrimages. I mean, I remember getting money together to go, to see all the Piero della Francescas. And to just, it was a whole other way of living. And everybody that I knew, well, maybe not everybody. I think was a different generation situation, also. Because the generation older than I am, some of the men thought they would have careers. And they got angry when it didn't happen. I mean, the culture there's just, you know, just everything that was happening, there weren't very many galleries. There were two galleries, you know, in New York back then. One of them was artist run. And so, it wasn't about anything further than what you were doing in your studio. And how do I view that now? Um, the last time that I had a studio visit with Al held, we, he came and visited and I, I mean, I didn't study with Al held, I at one point worked with, uh, worked for Paula Cooper. And she was on Prince Street. And it was, so it was one of my jobs. And he used to come in all the time to see shows and we would get in these long conversations. So, he came to my studio and he said he felt like a dinosaur. That it wasn't his world anymore. And he had, I don't remember what year it was, he had a big retrospective at the Whitney Museum. And I went to see it at the opening. I went up and it was at the very beginning. Cuz if I would go anywhere, I'd go just at the beginning so I could see the work. And he was leaving. And I said, where are you going, this is your opening? And he says, I'm going to Italy. I'm flying to Italy right now. I'm not gonna be here. So he left. And it was completely understandable, in some ways, you know? It's, so I guess I, when all this, the hoopla and the money and the networking started, I just thought, you know, these people are gonna be very disappointed. Like, it's cuz it's like, it's all for the wrong reason. And they wanna be famous. They wanna be rich. They wanna be whatever. But like, how would that keep you being in a fresh way in your studio? I, I found out early, because my dealer, Susan Caldwell, she did really well for me. I mean, I didn't do anything. She would come, she would just see I'd had all this work and she'd say, you know, I mentioned to you once before, oh, you wanna have a show in two months? So I'd say, okay. And it was 5,000 square feet, her gallery. And so, I didn't think about any of this stuff. I didn't think about like, oh, how do I get somebody, the studio? I mean, she just did whatever she did. And I just did what I did. And it wasn't, wasn't mixed, you know? So when all this other stuff started and it got so extreme, even in colleges, um, and people wouldn't do, I mean, especially at Yale, right? At a certain point, they would, they sent out invitations to come to people's studios at, in September when they, they, people had just started. And galleries would come, or it was not September. It was, uh, when auction week happened, whenever that was in the fall, right?
William T. Williams:Mm-hmm.
Frances Barth:And then I thought, well, now you can't even talk to the students because oh, some dealer said, oh, I like this. And then it was like an encouragement to never do anything different, right? That they just kind of stamped out the same thing. Like, could you spend your whole life doing that? Like without being surprised or, or thrilled, or, you know, like what's the point? And then of course you are in for a major disappointment because, if that's the only reason you're doing these things, and then you don't get any of that, right? You're not famous. You're not rich. Then you've spent your whole life and it's like, why did you do this? Like, it's really a dumb move economically, right? Like if you wanna really make money, you would probably go into a business, some other kind of thing. But art was never a business. So, I had to leave New York. And I was in a building with 14 other artists. And it was an abandoned building and I was managing it for all those years, right? It was like a squatters building. That's where my studio was and where I was. And, um, and I thought, you know, it's like my soul is dying. And, and so I have to get outta here. And so, you know, first I left and I was able to buy a$20,000 building in Jersey City. And it took me 12 years to fix it up. But I was able to do that. And, and just keep going in a more positive way. And that's what this is, you know? Here I am. And, and it's the only way I can live my life and not be involved in all this kind of other stuff that drags me down.
William T. Williams:Well, think of the musicians. Think of Duke Ellington...
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:...being on the road, you know, uh, 300 or 360 days, uh, a year. Or even smaller musicians, that you know, that we know less of being on the road for 200 days a year. It's total dedication to what they're interested in and to what the work means to other people.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:And the lives that they're touching with the music. But, uh, it requires that kind of dedication to culture, to cause, and to, um, this idea that you practice, you prepare and you perform. I think that's the underpinning of what, I think, the musicians are about. Or that kind of life as an artist is about.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:And you're in one of those three phases to, uh, your whole life. And it doesn't matter which one. The work matters. The uh, the, the, uh, honesty and the path, the truth pass. Ed Clark...
Frances Barth:yeah.
William T. Williams:...terrific artists said. It's about the journey. And that struck me cuz he was from a earlier generation, you know, the kind of abstract expressionist generation. And that phrase, that it's about the journey.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:Uh, that's always stuck with me, when he said that to me. But going back, I studied with Al Held. So, that's we have this overlapping again with Al Held.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:And what struck me when I met him, and it was in graduate school at Yale, he was absolute with me in terms of just...
Frances Barth:Yeah. Yeah.
William T. Williams:...pressure. Writing me constantly. No compromise. You know, he would drop three books on my, my desk and say, next week we're gonna talk about this. And I'm thinking, how the hell am I gonna read these books and paint also? And he kept that up for two years. And what I realized was that, not only could I keep up, but I was absorbing so much information so quickly, that he was an older artist passing on things to me. He had a interest in what I was doing. And he and numerous other artists from earlier generations, cross racial lines, cross, uh, generations, taking time out of their life to, to kind of help me.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:And give me thoughts and stuff to think about.
Frances Barth:And that, that's also for me, uh, like those guys and even the older guys, because at one point I was the only woman teaching in the graduate school at Yale, they were always straight ahead with me. It was no baloney.
William T. Williams:Yep.
Frances Barth:And, and that was in a very misogynous time, beside being, you know, the time with all the turmoil, which is still now with racism and everything else. But I mean, I, I led almost like a schizophrenic life. Because, you know, I have these relationships where people would be really straight with me, in terms of painting. And then, I'd have this home relationship and friends. And it would be completely the opposite. So, I was always commuting far away to teach. And I was like, I get back home and people would be angry, you know? Because I got a Guggenheim and I was a, a girl. And I'd only applied once and I didn't have relationships with any of the people on the jury. So I mean, those guys, uh, he wasn't hard on me like that. He, he, I met him because he came to my first show.
William T. Williams:Mm-hmm.
Frances Barth:And, and that first show of mine, people thought I was a man. Because Frances can also be a man. And I was offered a job teaching at Bennington because they thought I was an abstract painter from Chicago who was a guy. And I said, okay, I'm, I'm not, um, actually that's my show. And I'm, uh, I'm female and I'm from the Bronx. Are you still gonna gimme the job? And they said yes. But they all, I mean, there was such serious, it was noble. It was serious. It was important to be in your studio.
William T. Williams:If you don't practice, you can't get on the... perform.
Frances Barth:Nope.
William T. Williams:Can't get on the bandstand. That's the bottom line, is, is, uh, there is such a, uh, selection process within the arts itself. And the dropout rate is enormous.
Frances Barth:Mm-hmm. William T. Williams: If you think us, uh, in lower Manhattan at that point, and probably 80% of them are not involved in the activity anymore. So, you know, there is an there's an internal pressure to it. But there's also the, the reality of, people get married. They have kids. They have other obligations. That's um, it's not isolation in terms of... Yeah.
William T. Williams:...from the world.
Frances Barth:Yeah, absolutely.
William T. Williams:Uh, but you gotta pay rent. You, you know, you gotta go to little league ball games or whatever it may be.
Frances Barth:Mm-hmm.
William T. Williams:Uh, those things are, uh, that's part of what you have to learn to balance.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:A little bit. What high school did you go to, Frances? That's what I was thinking about. You were in the Bronx?
Frances Barth:St. Helenas, all girls.
William T. Williams:St. Helenas.
Frances Barth:It was, I had to take a bus to it. It was by the Whitestone bridge.
William T. Williams:Okay.
Frances Barth:It was a tough school. The nuns would slap me around.
William T. Williams:Oh, goodness.
Frances Barth:Oh yeah.
William T. Williams:You've gotten over that.
Frances Barth:Well, I, that they, they. Yes, I've gotten over that. Uh...
William T. Williams:Okay.
Frances Barth:At one point, uh, we used to have to go up these staircases right? There, there was one teacher who wasn't a nun. And she wound up working at Fordham University, ultimately. And I, I remember walking up with this long staircase and somebody smacked me in the head. So, my arm went up and I smacked that person back. And it was this teacher. And she said, you have to learn to control your actions. I said, you can't smack me in the head. It was like detention. Detention.
William T. Williams:That's right.
Frances Barth:At another point, I remember a nun throwing me up against a wall and taking out her handkerchief and front, get my lips. She says, you have lipstick on. I said, I don't have lipstick on. Yeah. So no, it was tough there.
William T. Williams:Oh goodness.
Frances Barth:It was, it was, I wouldn't recommend it as schooling in for any of your children. I, but I don't think they're allowed to do any of that now.
William T. Williams:Well, in September, I'm having a show, Frances.
Frances Barth:Uh-huh.
William T. Williams:And it's an exhibition at, at, uh, Michael Rosenfeld gallery. And there are paintings from that period. Paintings from 1968 through 1971. So, pretty much the period that we're talking about. It's like looking back at those paintings. Looking back at the pressure during that period of time and all the issues that we're now confronting and painting of identity, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Frances Barth:Mm-hmm.
William T. Williams:It'll be nice to look back at them. And I think they're going to be as powerful now as they were 50 years ago. If not more powerful.
Frances Barth:I, no, I do. I, I don't doubt it.
William T. Williams:Well, there were a lot of doubters in the late sixties. And I'm still going and, uh, hopefully this show will bring a younger generation in as well.
Frances Barth:Yeah. Yeah.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Your, how you've talked about your, both of you talked about how you've continued to make work and be in the studio and the distractions are how you've sort of kept, you know, the, the mindset that's kept you in the studio. One as a, as an artist myself, it's useful to hear those things and sort of reiterate the things that you kind of know, but it's easy to get distracted. But one of the things I wanted to ask, because what you said, Frances, about teaching and students kind of getting distracted by collectors coming into studios early. I know that experience, well, having seen this with students. And now, uh, social media has made it even worse. Where they're getting sort of reinforcement from outside in these spaces that are kind of pulling them outside of the studio in, in the dialogue that you're trying to engage with as a teacher. So, I'm curious of what your advice is for, not just me as a teacher, but all the other, you know, I, I know this podcast is particularly, um, one of our audiences are professors and artists who are teaching, of how you help students reengage in the studio and resist distractions that might prevent them from growing and experimenting and creating new and interesting work. When they're having a lot of like likes on Instagram and collectors wanting to come in in the first few months.
Frances Barth:I think that the relationship has to be one, one to one and, and honest. And, you know, I actually just had a, a Zoom. I had two Zooms with the former student who is actually, who is going to apply for a Guggenheim. This guy is so out of the box that he may, I hope get it. Because he is so unusual. He doesn't live in the New York area. He's, everything is, I mean, he's just totally from him. And he's no bullshit. And I think that it's kind of exhausting. Some people you're not gonna get through to. You have to, one on one, talk, uh, not at them, right? Not that they're at fault for doing all this stuff, right? That you have to kind of like go behind the social media. Go behind all the superficial stuff. And nobody's really stupid, right? They're gonna, they're gonna know, even if this all is going on, what it really means. Is it real? Mostly no. And one of my favorite things, to my students over all those decades, was what's gonna get you up in the morning and make you wanna go in your studio? It's not that stuff, right? What is going to get you in your studio? And all that stuff is marketing, right? And people don't wanna market change. They want somebody young who's, they tell, oh, I only want you to stay here. And now you're gonna be stuck like that for decades. That's not gonna, what, make you wanna go to your studio?
William T. Williams:Maybe never show what you're actually working on.
Frances Barth:Maybe.
William T. Williams:Have a lag between, um, you know, what you're doing and what you exhibit. That might be a way of...
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:...bolstering that. You know, kind of buffering that. You know, I always told the students the most important thing is, you need to, um, find a medium that you can afford and you can afford to experiment with. If oil paint is too expensive, find a, another paint that's not as expensive. And if you're spending half your earnings on a loft in New York, it doesn't make very much sense. And that there are other places that you can go. There are, you know, and work just as effectively. It's not necessarily to come to New York. It's not necessary to, to being an art center. I mean, what's necessary is, is having time space and the mental, uh, focus to begin to think.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:But that's kind of another story.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I think it's the story, actually. I think that's the core story.
William T. Williams:Well, you know, I'm not sure we're in an age of thinking.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Mm. I was just gonna say, do you think these other things, cuz the thought, the thinking, you said that, it really made me think that the distractions prevent you from thinking, you know? Instagram keeps you from thinking, cuz you're scrolling and going to openings and doing all the social things, prevent you from thinking cuz you're interacting.
William T. Williams:Well, you know, I'm, I'm a dinosaur. You know, you saw that with the computers and all of that. It's it's, it's like I, I only have one lifetime. And what I, I think I decided a long time ago is, I can't focused on everything. I can't learn every new gadget that comes out. Uh, it's just not possible. And I've always tried to limit the means of production. And when I said it earlier about the paint brush, I really mean that. In other words, it's, it is a simple tool to learn how it's constructed and what's made. It's, the difficult part is learning what to do with it. And that requires time, trial and error. Uh there's no, there's no manual. It's trial and error. That simple. And that requires time. But I, I think it's a, it's temperament. I mean, there's the intellectual structure and there's the technical structure. And giving the right mix of all of that stuff, uh, probably takes a lifetime. I'm spending a lot of time now looking at the, the late paintings of artists, as opposed to the early paintings. And trying to understand that transition from the beginning of their careers to the latter part of their careers. And what they were involved in. And it's been helpful to me. Extremely helpful. Hopefully, you look back and you say, gee, I had some fun during that time, you know? But this idea of, a whole generation of artists that we grew up with that, you know, still get up and still go to their studio. And spend time there, if they're just sitting in there and looking. But a lot of them are still working up to the last day of their lives. Of trying to get it right. And it's never right. You know, it's, it's, um, , it's right on Monday. And Tuesday, it's all wrong. And that's what keeps you going in the studio. That's what keeps me going in.
Frances Barth:Yeah. I mean, the thing with the, with the classes and students, and maybe also with the internet, right? Cuz the internet only really came in in the nineties, is that fewer people read. They Google things. They only get a fast answer. They don't do in depth research anymore. They wanna just get a painting and that's it. There's no second, third, fourth, right? There's no follow through, right? It's they want fast return. And painting isn't fast return. So, I think that's one of the aspects, if you're teaching, you have to convey to people.
William T. Williams:It's hard. It's hard. You know, as, as you get older, you realize that, uh, this idea of mid-career...
Frances Barth:yeah.
William T. Williams:...and what happens after mid-career? You know, it's, it's, it's kind of a big ocean out there in terms of what occurs.
Frances Barth:Yeah. Because artists don't retire.
William T. Williams:You're absolutely right about that.
Frances Barth:That's right.
William T. Williams:And it's 24 hours a day. You just keep doing it.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:My main reason for wanting to be an artist, you don't retire. You just keep doing it.
William T. Williams:Yep.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:You don't age out like other, um, artistic mediums. I know last time we talked with Frances about dance, you know, you can keep painting until you die.
William T. Williams:Um,
Frances Barth:Exactly.
William T. Williams:You can, you can. And then the, the big problems, what do you do with all of it? Oh, what does your family do with all of it?
Frances Barth:That's right. I'm, I'm in a real pickle with that.
William T. Williams:Yep.
Frances Barth:I don't know where to go with that. It's like, what is the options? Okay. Burn it all. That's one option. I don't know what the other option is right now. It's something on my mind.
William T. Williams:Well, I think you preserve it. Because it, it, it allows another generation insight into your mind and your thoughts about the civilization and the times that you lived. And not all of it will be true. But a lot of it will. And hopefully the kind of selective eye will pick up the things that were true and are true, and build on that. Uh, I think that's pretty much what I think I did in terms of looking at other artists and finding artists that I like the work and the more I looked at it, the richer it became and the more enriching my life as well.
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:It was very unlikely that I would become an artist from where I started. So the journey from, from rural North Carolina in the forties to New York and to this podcast...
Frances Barth:Yeah.
William T. Williams:...has been a long, long road. And there are no guarantees. The only thing there is, is, is, uh, insight into your own ability to keep going. You know, it's like keep hope alive. I always kind of like that, uh, idea of, of, uh...
Frances Barth:Mm-hmm.
William T. Williams:...as long as you believe that it's possible, it's possible. And that's, that's key to, to so much of my background and my experience. You just keep going.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Well, I know we only really got the tip of the iceberg for, I mean, at least with Frances, we've had a previous conversation, so there's a bit more we've talked about with, um, with you Bill. I know there's so much, we didn't even touch on starting the Studio Museum Residency Program or any of those things. So, I do hope that you come back for another episode and select somebody else to talk to. The question that I always end on, brings it back to the National Academy. Because that's why we're here. Um, and you both have been inducted into this collective of artists and architects, uh, peers who, um, recognize each other's, um, excellent work in, in the industry. So, I'm curious, um, what this, and I know Frances, you've already even asked this, so if you have additional thoughts, but, um, Bill, especially for you, what does it mean to be a part of the National Academy? And what have you thought about, of this, uh, collective of artists and architects that's been around for, we're almost 200 years old at this point?
Frances Barth:Let's ask bill first.
William T. Williams:Well, I think it's going through a transformation, being more inclusive. And certainly inclusive in terms of styles, people, backgrounds, uh, criteria. And that's good. That, that it it's it's mobile. And it sees new ideas and new ways of thinking about excellence. I think that is involved in a process of transformation as well. But I think the, the, the key to it is, what new educational, uh, venues are there? Uh, it can't be a closed door Academy. It can't be an exclusive Academy. It has to be a democratic process. And if it's underlying principle is the continuation of the arts and the continuation of excellence, then the educational part of it has to be kind of reved up more and more. You can't wait for the people to come to the Academy. You have to take the Academy to the people. So, it requires new initiatives in terms of how to reach out and how to live in a modern world, I think. What does it mean to me? Again, it's the long road from rural North Carolina to the Academy is, it was probably unimaginable to me when I started. Unimaginable to me, when I got outta graduate school. It's not something I thought about. I hope it gives confidence to some young artists that's, um, drawing at the kitchen table, lying on the floor, sketching. Some 14, 15 year old kid that has an interest in the art. If my life and my involvement and my induction into the academy helps with their dream, then my life has been successful. It's not the Academy that makes it successful. It's that young kid who becomes an artist because of seeing it, that makes it successful. And that's how the Academy can be successful. Through that educational aspect of it.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I totally agree. I think it's one of the exciting things about being a part of the Academy at this point. Um, particularly the, the Programs Department, we are sort of filling that educational mandate and trying to develop those programs. I, I, I love hearing when Academicians share those similar visions because yes, the hope is to bring the Academy to the people and provide those pathways. Um, and yes, create an open, um, inclusive environment.
William T. Williams:Well, um, do it. Just do it. Cause Nike say, just do it.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:We are actively working on it. I promise you that. Frances, any other thoughts? I know we, but you don't, you know, we've already...
Frances Barth:Yeah, no, I've answered that. And it, and it was similar to basically what Bill said. And, uh, and also for me, because I'm not very socially engaged. I, you know, it's like, I don't, I don't hang out. This is a great chance for me to have a real conversation with an artist that I respect. And I, I love that you're doing these podcasts and also I'm, and I've been a member of the Academy. And even through meetings, nothing ever, I mean, you see people again, just superficially for an hour at, you don't ever get into a real conversation. And, uh, so I think this program's terrific. And you have the opportunity, you know, they say that, and I don't know that this is true, but they say that basically seven galleries globally run everything. And, you know, even when you see who's in shows. So, if the National Academy can at least put a jolt into that situation and cover more of what's going on and inspire people, then that's a great thing to try to do.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I agree.
William T. Williams:Well, I was going to say, we're all bobbing our heads. Yeah. Yes.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Great to be in agreement, but I totally understand. We need to do it. How are we gonna do it? And that's the, that's those are the next steps. And, um, well, I, I so appreciate you guys taking the time to be a part of this podcast. Um, Frances for two sessions of tech, you know, working through tech to have a conversation with the fellow Academician.
Frances Barth:Your welcome. My pleasure.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:And bill, thank you so much for joining. Um, and again, I, I really hope you join us again and, um, you can select another Academician you'd like to talk to.
William T. Williams:Um, I'd love to do it. And thank you, Frances. It's good seeing you again.
Frances Barth:Same here.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Amazing. Well, it's just such a pleasure. Thank you so much.
Frances Barth:Thank you.
William T. Williams:Thank you.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:You're Listening to Exquisite Corpse.
Anjelic Owens:That was really sweet, right?
Adrienne Elise Tarver:It is. I love hearing two, two people reconnect, you know? Particularly artists reminiscing on like what they did.
Anjelic Owens:He really was dropping some gems.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:One of the things and this like, idea that like what they were saying feels like, feels like a lesson or like a reminder. I felt, listening back to the conversation, the way that Bill talked about Al Held was how I felt listening to him. Cause he speaks a little bit about this idea of like, who taught him. This idea of like staying in the studio or I think he also talks about Romare Bearden. But like this idea of like...
Anjelic Owens:Yeah.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:...staying focused and I was listening to that thinking like, that's the generational, sort of like, knowledge passing that's happening right now.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. The studio practice is like everything. And I honestly like, it's a work ethic. It's a legit muscle. And that's something that comes with discipline and like repetition. There's things that he's tapping into now that he would've never been able to do in his 20 year old self. He had to have had that 20, 30 year, 50 year time within the studio to get to this point of like, this like, mental head space. And I think that is something really special of like, by just executing that muscle, there's a certain like mental space that you can only achieve once you are like dedicated to the craft.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Bill, he really took us to task at the end there, right?
Anjelic Owens:Definitely.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I mean, i, I agree with exactly what he said. We've had these conversations ourselves about how important it is for an institution like us to really think about and thoughtfully enter the space of education.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah. It's, especially with the MFA programs and how certain like educational structures exist for art, there's a lot of gaps and room for thinking about alternative ways of education. The mentorship program has been in the works, and I know that's been, we've both been thinking about it for a long time.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah. It's something that, you know, from the beginning of taking this job, I was really excited about, of creating something that exists outside of the traditional structures of university and school systems. But a model that really removes some of those barriers. Especially financial barriers, um, and access barriers to...
Anjelic Owens:Mm-hmm.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:...give emerging artists and architects the opportunity to meet this incredible group of artists and architects at the National Academy. To provide meaningful relationships with these incredible people, these incredible creators.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah. I definitely think it's needed. Especially graduating recently, like mentorship is something that is not necessarily taught. It's kind of like, sometimes you stumble into, or sometimes you don't. So, I think being intentional about that, providing resources to emerging artists, um, in a real practical way and accessible way, I think is really important.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah. And I, I feel like there's a lot of consensus among the National Academicians, as we talk to them and we workshop our, our particular structure for a mentorship program, of the necessity for this kind of thing. So many of our academy missions like Bill and Frances, are teachers, were teachers and are very familiar with the need. But also the systems that exist and what can happen and the possibilities outside of the systems. And I feel real responsibility as a representative of this institution, as you know, representative of the department, that's kind of tasked with education, to provide those avenues.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:So I'm really excited about this season. This was the first of a few different episodes where we continue that fold of the Exquisite Corpse drawing.
Anjelic Owens:Yes, yes.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Getting the metaphor right this time. We've got some Architects, we are populating with more architects this season. And what's really interesting to me is the continued interest of artists and architects wanting to speak to each other. So, we'll also bring on a couple people who haven't yet been on the podcast. So, we will have an episode of new participants. And excited to hear that conversation. And, um, yeah, this'll be a great season. What are you excited for?
Anjelic Owens:Um, to be honest, I really like, just kind of like getting a feel with their relationships. Like, I don't know, there's something about the banter and once they get comfortable, there's like a nice sweet spot towards the end of each of the, um, conversations where you really get to the meat. So, that, that's my favorite part, usually, of each of these conversations.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Yeah. The topics start to get a bit saucier. It's always really interesting. It's like that 40 minute mark. It's why long format podcasts, I think, are where it's at, you know?
Anjelic Owens:Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. What about you? What do you enjoy the most?
Adrienne Elise Tarver:Um, exactly what you said. I mean, I really enjoy just hearing what's relevant and important for them to talk about in that moment. You know, we're really capturing a moment in time between two colleagues. Whether they know each other or don't. And the topics that are coming up today might be different next week and next month. And so to capture that, I think is really special. There's this idea, we talked about in this episode, that, with artists, you make your work until you can't anymore. Which is, you know, when you die and your work lives on. Yeah. But something like this also lives on. Their voice and their perspective on their work and their connection to this other person is also living on. It feels really special to be in these moments with these participants.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah. It's like an active archive, if you will.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:So thanks for participating on Anjelic. I'm so happy to have you join me on the podcast now.
Anjelic Owens:Yeah. Thank you. It's been a, a fun ride.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:I mean, it's just beginning. So, strap in. As, uh, Rick Mayhew said, uh, welcome to the moon.
Anjelic Owens:Oh no.
Adrienne Elise Tarver:So, thank you also to all our listeners. Thank you to the audience for joining us for another season of Exquisite Corpse. We're really looking forward to bringing you another season. And, we've mentioned some previous episodes. Again, this season we're gonna have throwbacks to people who are on it before. Please go back and listen to previous seasons so you can hear what these conversations were with these other artists. And don't forget to like and subscribe to the podcast on whatever platform you're listening to. Drop us a little review. Tell us what you think. All of this helps to get the word out. Tell your friends and we'll see you next time.
Anjelic Owens:Thank you for listening to Exquisite Corpse from the National Academy of Design. Where a 5 0 1 C 3 nonprofit organization dedicated to promoting art and architecture. And we rely on your support to make programs like this possible. To learn more and to donate visit National Academy.org. This conversation was recorded on August 3rd, 2022. Exquisite Corpse is written and produced by Adrienne Elise Tarver and Anjelic Owens, and co-produced mixed and edited by Mike Clemow and Wade Strange as SeeThru Sound.
